Daniel and Isabel Save Classical Music
Classical musician-turned-stand up comedian Isabel Hagen and classical pianist Daniel Anastasio explore their favorite classical pieces while discussing the creative life. Listen along for live musical excerpts paired with banter between two best friends. New episodes every Tuesday.
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Daniel and Isabel Save Classical Music
Chasing Ideas
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Daniel and Isabel talk about reading Rick Rubin's "The Creative Act," getting ideas, and Debussy's Arabesque No. 1 in E major.
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All right. So I'm going to start today by talking, which with a lot of um a lot of commenters, I think ones who watch our clips. Uh one more. They uh they criti they say that uh you don't let me talk, which it's true. He doesn't let me talk.
SPEAKER_02And uh I'm just I was just gonna say actually that reminds me. Go ahead. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00I thought you were actually about to say something else. You got offended. No, no, I wasn't I was not offended. I was just like shock. I thought I was like, whoa, like that is a lack of awareness. Yeah, awareness.
SPEAKER_02We're gonna talk about that.
SPEAKER_00Well, so I was reading this book, The Creative Act by Rick Rubin, which everyone is reading right now.
SPEAKER_02Famous neuroscientist Rick Rubin.
SPEAKER_00Uh, isn't he like a music producer? Yeah, dude.
SPEAKER_02Um producer and whatever, rock and everything. He's yeah, legendary producer.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, my comedian friend Joe List was like, You've gotta read The Creative Act by Rick Rubin. And he usually when people recommend things to me, I like avoid them, but he kept telling me I have to read it. And so I finally got it. And I had just been starting it, and I was reading all these quotes that I loved and writing them down, and I was like, oh man, like Daniel's gotta read this book. And I texted you, I was like, it was like a whole long thing. Like, I'm reading the Creative Act by Rick Room, and I think you'd really enjoy it, and I think it could be some really interesting stuff for a podcast. And I like copy and pasted a quote, and you were like, Yeah, I read it. It's great.
SPEAKER_02It's just like I did have that reaction of like I mean, it's just so a book that I would love.
SPEAKER_00I guess I didn't realize that you read.
SPEAKER_02Fair enough.
SPEAKER_00Like, not that you uh don't seem like someone who's intellectual and that would read, and but I just assume you're too busy like practicing making videos.
SPEAKER_02No, that's a thing. Like, actually, I mean, I used to read a lot more, and then I found more and more that when I wanted to engage in something intellectually or artistically, I would just go to the piano. So, and I would almost justify that in my own mind of well, and I mean I wouldn't say this to myself, but I think I would feel like in a way I was reading because I'm reading the music from all the great composers, and I'm getting I'm getting scintillated by it, I'm getting ideas from it, I'm getting inspired. But it's not the same, it's really not the same, and like it's playing music is a shorter hit where you're getting you're feeling sound in this present way all the time, and you're like the narrative is unfolding in such a vivid, visceral way. Whereas when you're reading a book, there might be you need just way more. I mean, in my opinion, you need a lot more time and patience. You can play for 10, 15, 20 minutes a beautiful piece by Chopin and feel totally fulfilled and then go do something else. Very hard, I think, to read a book for 10 for just 10 minutes, read a novel, and that you're just getting let me sit down and start this novel, go for about 10 minutes, and then okay, I'm I'm fulfilled, I'm gonna go do something else. It takes a longer, I don't know, capacity or something.
SPEAKER_00That's an interesting comparison, though, reading and playing music because to me, I was like, well, but in one of them you're like creating, and one you're reading. But actually, if you're playing Chopin, you're reading Chopin.
SPEAKER_02You're reading.
SPEAKER_00It's kind of the same thing. One is obviously a little more um what's the word, interactive. No, but a lot of people would argue reading is interactive.
SPEAKER_02Well, here's the question then, like it's but it's a little like I'm reading a lot of the same authors over and over and over and over again. Because uh I mean, unless I'm really diversifying what I'm taking in musically.
SPEAKER_00Right. But scholars do that, they they study one author or one philosopher for a while and read tons of their work over and over again and think about them. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So there's overlap. There's yeah, it's and you need you kind of probably need to be doing both. I just I just so was getting that sh uh I think I was getting that musical hit, you know. I thought that you're actually this is me hitting up some with some with some Brahms right here. Oh man. Um I did that so naturally. I've never done that, okay? I give blood. Sure. But I've never You give blood?
SPEAKER_00Um Do you know your blood type?
SPEAKER_02I always forget it. A B.
SPEAKER_00I realize I don't know my blood type of thing. A B reason, I think. Yeah. And I can't find it anywhere. It's not on it's not on any tests you get. Like when you go to the doctor and they do all these tests, you'd think they could just like put your blood type up in the corner?
SPEAKER_02It's like we have no idea what your blood type is.
SPEAKER_00We have no idea. I asked my parents, they don't know what my blood type is. I have to go give blood to like get it. Because they tell you your blood type there.
SPEAKER_02I think that might be an American thing too, because uh there's at least some other cultures, I know Asian cultures, some are like, oh, that's super it's linked to like your astrology and like there's it's really important for you to know your blood type, and it's like crazy if you don't know your blood type.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we don't know.
SPEAKER_02And we don't know. We I'm not gonna ask.
SPEAKER_00Um anyway, so you you give blood, but you've never you've only the only drug you've ever shut up is Shosta Covid. That's right.
SPEAKER_02That's a heart that's the hardest hitter. Yeah. Um you get high from that, that's for sure. Um Well, okay, yeah, I'm all that over. But I have been wanting to bring reading back more back into my life. And so it's nice that you texted me. Yeah. Because although I've read this um When did you read it? A couple years ago. Two years ago.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay. So this is see to me, it's like new. I just discovered this book. Well, it's great. And yeah.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, I mean, do you w what's something that inspired you in it? Or like why did you text me that?
SPEAKER_00Well, do you can you find the quote that I pointed out to you? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02We came in, we came in prepared today for this company.
SPEAKER_00We did, because this one particular quote is something that I find very connected, not only is like joke writing, because a lot of comedians well, we'll read the quote first and then.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. But with music, especially this quote. I think this is the one you were talking about. I mean, there's a couple, but here's one. The best artists tend to be the ones with the most sensitive antennae to draw in the energy resonating at a particular moment. Um that's one that I I I definitely want to talk about. I don't know if you did, but this idea that instead of oh yeah, I remember the one you were talking about, sorry. But we'll get back to that. Um, instead of this idea of you have to sit down and create an idea or you have to do an idea or find an idea, like where is it? You know, instead of actively searching for it, instead work on becoming uh a receiver for more information and more ideas because they're available to you all the time. It's like this these clouds of ideas that are just hovering around us, or this ocean of ideas. And the David Lynch analogy is like catching the big fish. So it's like casting your reel into this big, beautiful lake of ideas. But no matter no matter what you want to how you want to put it, you need to be patient in that process and you need to be a receiver of ideas so that you can. Oh, there it is. Kind of like when you're meditating and you find thoughts.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's when I read that quote, I thought that's exactly how I feel as someone who comes up with ideas as a writer, comedian, and filmmaker, and sometimes music, but mostly I'm creating not in music. Um but I've never felt like anything that was good that I made was something I like concocted. It always felt like it was something that was that finally appeared and I grabbed it.
SPEAKER_02Like you do you feel like you channeled it, or you were just okay. So it was something almost like where did it appear from?
SPEAKER_00Well, it came well the other thing is with the antennae analogy, like the work you need to do every day is you need to put up your antennae. Antenna, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, let's just go with antenna.
SPEAKER_00Okay, it sounds douchey to say antennae.
SPEAKER_02I think we only have one.
SPEAKER_00I have one. If I had two, I'd have a lot more ideas. Um but like the work of you know, sitting down to and a lot of writers will say, if you want to be a writer, just sit down and write. Doesn't have to be good, just write. And to me, that is the equivalent of like putting up your antenna. Because yeah, an idea is not gonna come to you every day or every moment you do that. But if you don't even put your antenna up, you won't even catch the good ideas. Yeah. So, um, and with certain pieces of music, like they're so beautiful when I hear them that I'm like, these just must have existed in the universe, like and and this composer just found it. And I don't even I never mean that in any kind of disparaging way, like they didn't come up with it themselves. Like, no, like they were sensitive and patient enough to let it come, and actually like willing to, I think there's like an ego you have to put aside to really have those ideas, those, those real, like really good things come to you.
SPEAKER_02And this, okay, this is something I want to explore a little because you're talking about it, and the book talks about it as like the idea. This is the idea, like this musical phrase or this piece of art or whatever. But you know, of course, uh it doesn't work that way. It is a it is a culmination of many small ideas that uh it's not like one idea that you're following. It's a breadcrumb of ideas that lead to some larger idea, or it's maybe to keep talking about this thing of accumulating information, right? It's like you're taking little bits of oh, there's a little piece, there's a little piece of the puzzle, there's a little piece of clay or whatever that you're and you're starting to form your statue, you know, from it. Um so that's the that's where the work comes in of sitting and being patient and allowing little bits of information to accumulate. Because look, when I start, let's say, a video, or if I start a uh a program where I want to like talk and play or something, I can't, I it wouldn't be possible for me to hold the entire concert in my head, right? I I want to get inspired. I can't wait to get inspired. So I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna think and then just allow or I'm gonna read about a composer, I'm gonna play through some music, and then one thing, one sentence happens, right? Like wow, this piece by WC, which I think this will apply uh to WC. I'm gonna play some later. But this piece by WC um could have been started just from this one little kernel of an idea, and then let's follow that, let's follow that thread. So it was that only that first idea that was the ignition or the match that led to an inspiring session of ideas.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02To me, that's how it feels.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and it's it's super um obvious with joke writing to me, because an idea, like something that seems oh, there's something funny about this thing that keeps happening or this idea I have. Um, and then what the joke ends up being, to me, there always feels like there's only one solution. It's like it's gonna come, but like there is a joke here in this irony that I'm sensing of in the world. And like, what's the joke? And to me, it's always about finding it, not coming up with it. Like, I I hate stuff I come up with, like it's awful, but then occasionally, like, it's like that's it, and it just appears. The conditions are different for everyone. I think every I mean, there'll be a lot of overlap. Oh, that's my process too, you know. But different artists have different things. Some that's like, gotta be in a room full of people, and we just talking ideas, talking, talking, talking, and I get I get stimulated, and I yes, that and that. For me, I have to mostly, unless I'm talking to like one person who I get along with, and that you know, we can kind of generate ideas together. Um, like in a group, forget it.
SPEAKER_02No, you you you I've seen you in groups, and you um you're a classic. I don't know if introvert is the right word, because I haven't done the deep dive on the introvert-extrovert thing. Sure. But when people are filling the room up, you uh rescind or whatever the word. You kind of like you're like, okay, the the energy is being taken up, so I'm just gonna like chill.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because it doesn't feel like it would be natural. I would have to do something like put on in order to then command the attention, and I just it's not gonna be my best self. So I'd rather retreat and then let people discover it one-on-one or through my work.
SPEAKER_02Um and then the irony is on stage, you're like this larger than life. I mean, you're a comedian, right? You're you're creating all of the attention in the room.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it's all pre-planned. And I'm I'm I know if something goes wrong, like it's all pre-planned. I know. No, it's all completely written. Sometimes I'm figuring things out on stage, but the the goal is that it's all pre-planned. And then if someone calls out or if there's a crowd work moment, it's fine because I have the structure to come back to. I always I can always come back to the material. So if something goes off the rails and it's kind of weird, and they're like, well, anyway, back to what I was saying, and I and I've done it enough that I can usually make that a funny moment, like, well, that was weird, you know, just some sort of like energy where I can recognize that we've gone off the rails, and now we're gonna go back to the thing I wrote. Sometimes I'll even be like, this next joke, you guys are gonna love it. Like, you know, like just to get them back into the thing because that's the type of comedy I am best at. Yeah. And some comedians are really good at just kind of stream of consciousness in the moment. Uh I guess I could get good at that if I want, but why? Like other comedians do that and I do the written thing.
SPEAKER_02When you're when you're doing like when you were creating your movie, how did you sit down and come up like it's such a more daunting task to be like, now I'm gonna create an if an entire film. Like how do ideas come there? Or was your process the same as if you were gonna come up with like an hour special?
SPEAKER_00Um, the process is different because the special is lots of little jokes that I work on in little pieces, and then eventually I'm like, okay, I have all these jokes, how do I weave them into some sort of cohesive order? And you know, because it's not a lot of comedians will do like a one-person show, and it's really just a stand-up hour, you know, that they've tried to, and I'm not knocking it, I'm just and I I'll probably do that too for the next one. Like, um, but it comes at least the way I do it, and a lot of comedians do it, it's all these different little ideas, and then you try to find a connective tissue with it. Whereas a movie, I was I was just like, okay, this is the story. Okay, what comes ne what happens? So I'm writing it pretty much in order of the story, you know. It's not like, well, I have all these different things. How do I although actually with this movie in particular, it was a bunch of little episodes I had written that I then wanted to include, and then I wrote more of it. So actually it wasn't that different, but it was, you know, it's just sitting down and writing. It's not like something that needs to land in the moment with an audience.
SPEAKER_02Although you're probably the part of actually producing it and creating it with others and actors that requires a lot of like spontaneity.
SPEAKER_00Right. The direction in the when we're on set, it's like, okay, I need can you do it more this way? Yeah. Because I know the beats in my head, I know how I want to edit it. I need this to be more like a this moment. Like I need this to be more uh deadpan or or more uh, you know, awkward or whatever I wanted in that moment. Right. So there's overlap, but um it didn't feel daunting, it just felt like something I really wanted to do, and I just sort of sat down and did it every day. Yeah. Yeah. I I that's the other thing. I feel like um and maybe this is something I should that people think is like lame, but if something feels daunting to me, it's usually a sign that it's not exactly what I should be doing. Not if it feels scary, not if it feels challenging, but like daunting usually means I don't at that moment have quite the capacity to do it. And I need to start smaller and build to it more.
SPEAKER_02I feel that in my throat. Really? Like if we're talking like actual where you feel that stuff. Oh, the daunt, yeah. Because there's daunting, like you're you're getting there. It's like daunting versus just yeah, challenging.
SPEAKER_00Challenging, scary, risky. That's that's all different.
SPEAKER_02Risky, okay, everything is risky. You gotta you gotta and so I need a lot of external force actually to take major risks. I think I come from a place and I come from a family of like low, lower risk. Okay. Like have a family, like live a life that is not too off the rails, don't take too many risks. And then, you know, so actually my struggle was more to find uh that wait, uh I could be an artist, and what does that even mean to be an artist? I kind of didn't believe in the word. Kind of like kind of like, what does that even mean? I'm just gonna work really hard at whatever I do. Yeah, so and I had to learn this book is very useful because it's all almost affirming that. It's kind of like, well, artistry is just caring about something really deeply and dedicating yourself to it and tapping in to something that you feel is spiritual, that isn't uh just part of this physical world. Something that is like connective and connected to something greater than yourself. I definitely feel that when I'm when I'm doing my thing, when I'm playing music and feeling inspired, when I'm sharing it with others, especially my highest value is connection. You know, I need to feel connected and connected with other people in order to feel happy, in order to feel inspired anyway. Well, forget about happy. Happy's a whole can of worms. But like so, this this book especially spoke to me because it was like, look, you're not special. Everyone's special. The ideas are just kind of out there, and some people grab them and some people don't. I'm gonna teach you how to get better at receiving them, right? Recognizing them when they're there, having awareness, yeah, building awareness of that and yourself, I think is the one major thing you can do in your life to better your life. Like it's a surefire, like let's increase the amount of tools you have.
SPEAKER_00Right. And and my favorite artists are the ones who simply just wait a little longer for the you know, they they just sit with it a little bit more, especially comedians, because there's comedians who make really hacky, obvious jokes, and you're like, really?
SPEAKER_02Have you ever used uh like AI for anything?
SPEAKER_00No, okay.
SPEAKER_02You're very I I love this. You're very anti-A.
SPEAKER_00I have uh a stomach ache on the right side is this normal. Like I sometimes now I use it to like ease my anxieties, but never for anything creative. Never.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so I'll admit that one time I whatever. I mean, I I'm I'm not ashamed of this at all, but like, you know, I'm making these videos day in, day out. I'm like, okay, this is a lot, and I'm performing and I'm doing a lot of other things and I have other projects. Um and and I live alone, you know. So it's like So sad. Yeah, and I'm lonely and I cry. So what AI does is it helps me use the suffering.
SPEAKER_00Don't live alone and I cr I cry every day on the couch, just just putting that out there.
SPEAKER_02You're gonna cry by the end of this podcast. Yeah. Um, but look, what I what I find extremely useful is a sounding board. So like I'm happy to call a close friend, call call family member and be like, hey, I was thinking about this idea and I just need to like flesh it out. Like I'm someone who needs to flesh out ideas by talking or writing. You can be your own sounding board by writing stuff down and then r looking back at it, right? Or talking into a recorder and then being like, oh, there's a cool idea in there somewhere, right? Not being identified with your ideas or attached to your ideas, but being like, ideas are flowing through me. Now let's go sift through them for that for that diamond. Um and ChatGPT or something like that, AI, is hypothetically a platform where you could do that. Like, here are all my ideas. Like, hey, or yeah, or like I'm thinking about doing an idea about this. Like, what do you think? And then it's gonna spit out a bunch of other non original. ideas, but that'll get you going on some other stuff that would could be creative and original. Sure. And so I you know, I used it for a moment to be like, okay. And I and I kind of I I was like, oh yeah, that's that leads to this idea. And then I went off and kind of did my own script and made a video that was, you know, but I used ChatGPT to kind of be a sounding board for a moment. And it was without a doubt worse. And I couldn't and I didn't realize it at the time because I was just overwhelmed and I was just like honestly I was just being a little bit lazy. Sure. Uh because I ran out I it's just like I really want to put out a video. I don't have time. I'm overwhelmed. This'll this will take that that process of zero step zero to step 10. We can just eliminate all that. It it gets it gets you from zero to 10 fast and then like the last I don't know what this is a scale of 15. I don't know why it said 10. Let's say it's a 15. It gets you from zero to 10 really quickly and then you can do the last 30%.
SPEAKER_00Jeez, I really backed myself I know you were about to say and you know what? If you know how to use it as a tool it's fine. But then you're like no it was worse.
SPEAKER_02No no no no it's subtly it's subtly worse as in there is and this is like spirituality I I don't know I can't label it but there's something that happens when you sit with your own ideas and the world long enough where you will generate something that genuinely connects to people on a deeper level than that AI can ever get to. Right um and I can't describe it other than like it's palpable. I feel it it it does also represent itself in the analytics. It's like that video that I will not reveal which one but but that video got less view. Like it just it just like it doesn't connect and um I'm glad I did that. I'm glad I had that um moment of whatever failing because it taught me something I think it taught me something that people who refuse to ever use it will not know which is like there's that there's something in there that it's not grabbing because it can't and of course all those AI people will be like I know no yeah you yeah yeah you know no I know no and I think that's really commendable also that you were able to recognize that because that's another sign of a good artist is being able to say you know what this I'm gonna kill this idea.
SPEAKER_00Not you don't have to kill it you didn't whatever you post it doesn't matter it's I could take it down social media is like a garbage bag.
SPEAKER_02I came up with ultimately I came up with my own ideas but it was filtered through in a way that like spoiled it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah but you you killed doing that again. Yeah you know and do that again and for me not to be like I'm so great but you know I'll I'll write jokes all the time or or come up with an idea and write like a a page or something and be like you know what this isn't it and I it's not I don't even want to salvage it. I'm just like nah let's do something else. Yeah and I think the quicker you can recognize like a non-starter and you can keep it for because sometimes there's ideas that you're just not ready for like I have joke ideas where years later I was able oh let me craft that in like I had a a bit in my special um it's one of my my one of my personal favorite bits of the special um and it was an idea I had my first couple years of comedy and it was just kind of like not that great. I just didn't I didn't have the chops for it. And then I put it aside and you didn't throw it out you put it aside put it aside well I just I remember most of these ideas you know and then I was sort of looking through notes and I was like hmm I wonder if I could do something with that. Because I had another joke that was tangentially related to the same subject. So then I thought okay maybe I could bring that idea back in. Um but anyway but just knowing like when something is just a non-starter and like trying to salvage something and make it Frankenstein it into something exactly it's just better to feel it when you're doing it put it away put it in the drawer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah to go back for a second to this the openness of Rick Rubin I wonder what he would say about AI.
SPEAKER_00But turning he's probably said a lot of things that you could find.
SPEAKER_02He probably yeah he probably has um he's like he's like this book came out like 10 years ago I don't believe any of that anymore ideas are actually like in a specific place in Ohio that no one has access to except for me. So turning something here's another quote from his book turning something from an idea into a reality can make it seem smaller. It changes from unearthly to earthly the imagination has no limits. The physical world does the work exists in both and I love that um I have felt that when I even just try to take ideas an idea might have and then quickly try to turn it into language like on this podcast where language feels so insufficient to me to capturing the abstractness of something like an idea which really is like a cloud you know that can't be we even say like an idea right it's this it's this limitless thing that may or may not turn into words if I choose to put some of it into words. But a composer to me who plays with this maybe this tension or this line between the abstract the beautiful abstract of something like nature which is undefinable and the definite quality of tonality is Claude Debussy who, you know, was called an impressionist and I guess he he resisted that title um but he did? Yeah and and I I haven't looked deeply into it but I I know that he was not he didn't accept uh being an impressionist maybe it was just that chat douche I don't know huh just that yeah like there are some things that chat is good for um but that's not one of them. That's not one of them I won't grab my phone right now and ask um but let me let me play a couple things we'll switch over for a sec and I want to play something that um I feel like speaks to this topic. Alright I've got my music here um I want to play a little bit of this first arabesque which is a piece I played when I was a little younger but this point I was making earlier Debut's pieces tend to start in this inviting and curious way I mean like think about Claire Delune um or Girl with the flaxen hair or Briere the prelude. I mean there's so many pieces that just they're giving you a little they're inviting you to like open the window into the world that he's offering um or as you put it a different way um that an inviting question. Yeah that it's a question.
SPEAKER_00But it's a question that doesn't alienate you it's a question that says what do you think? What do you think? Doesn't something happen here?
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah and and in his preludes famously he puts the titles at the ends of the pieces instead of at the beginnings in the score. So I he's not giving you a preconceived notion of the piece as for the performer uh before you start which I think is brilliant. Other composers don't do that.
SPEAKER_00That's such an interesting fact because it's something only the performers know about WC's intentions or wanting to not make his intentions known. Because if you listen to the piece you don't know where where he in the sheet music he put the title.
SPEAKER_02Yeah remember I played uh Kurtag earlier and he isn't he's another composer that's giving instructions to the performer like you know uh use only two fingers here and things like that that are well I think that uh what those things do is they they bring the performer into a state of more receptivity. So they're they're it's like you can't really interpret this music unless you're in a state of curiosity. Right. Um so he's kind of allowing you to get there through his instructions. So anyway this first arabesque also starts just incredibly simply recognize that it's cave on the right hand harmony what is that pentatonic I was gonna say that I gave you I gave you a beat we all I mean if you know WC you know he got super interested in Eastern influences and was he did he go to the world's fair yeah and but did so did Ravel or I don't I don't remember if Ravel did but WC was really impacted by that especially gamelon music. Yes but this is long before that so this is a young WC just experimenting with modes and stuff. That's so interesting so maybe when he finally heard the gamelon was he just like that's it oh yeah I've been tapping like there's a place for me like it's the universe like these things sort of exist and for some reason he had a sense of that yeah he was he was already interested in getting away from the traditional European tonal harmony structures and everything and then he found his answer in a lot of Asian music from the time. So but he's still rooted it the left hand is like an open triad right it's beautiful and you can just like improvise over this sometimes really really beautiful pentatonic in the right and just a major triad in the left so he is still rooted in form you know we kind of traveled all the way down the keyboard and then made our way back up so and there's this always this kind of beautiful symmetry in Debuty that he finds in nature you know where like it it's form but it's a different kind of form than sonata form. It's like just shapes that arrive or show themselves over time like like a kaleidoscope that's just changing colors or something.
SPEAKER_00Or like a painting that's more abstract right there some I could think of a painting that's like different shapes and colors and and maybe there is sort of a structure to it but it's not something that you could say oh that's a tree.
SPEAKER_02Yeah you know the people in impressionistic paintings for example are usually not well defined right as opposed to the romantic era where there's like it's all about like the individual is like super important. For a long time I mean in in art in general it was about the feelings of the individual here it's about letting go into something greater than you dissolving the self into a bigger natural world of meaning. So even as he's writing this pretty young he's um finding these kinds of shapes so and he's allowing the patterns to kind of direct where the story goes something his music just feels so spontaneous. Yeah it's like it's it to me it's like you're flying when he's rising up there. I mean it's it's it's the wind uh just taking the music and yeah it's funny because later there's a quote from him saying something like um the music of the wind in the sea um that is that music that inspired him from that World's Fair is like that is that's the real language not not all this rule and structure of you know Western European art music that stuff is stifling.
SPEAKER_00And music written for royalty like you know yeah like what's the point?
SPEAKER_02Yeah he found so much more fundamental truth and beauty in in nature and the music that um might inspire us to feel more connected to nature.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm Yep wait what was the second quote you read? The second quote I read we first we talked about the artist having an antenna that like gets these ideas and then it's like music like this that's the ultimate feeling of he just had his antenna up and this this just came. You know it feels so organic and flowing and feels like how nature begin but what was the second quote you read please let me interrupt you.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um the second quote was see that's the type of thing where we're gonna clip like that and they're gonna be like he's so mean to her I love being mean to you um and I enjoy it.
SPEAKER_02Good thank you thank you let me be mean turning um the unearthly into the earthly or turning the immaterial into something that's physical.
SPEAKER_00Okay so I will counter that idea slightly that or with music especially that doesn't have words but to me that's the closest medium where you you I feel like you're still in that unearthly idea. Like if if you're making a movie for instance you see it in your head and then you make a movie that it's just it's not gonna look it's you know your your thing in your head is is going to guide you to some new thing. Right. And that's what he's sort of saying it becomes from it goes from unearthly to earthly but with music and with poetry where where it's a little more it's a little less connected directly to our language um and to just you know picture like real pictures like photography or or cinematography um it does feel like a more transcendent direct transcendence of these abstract ideas you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Yeah and I I feel like it depends on what camp of music you're in like sure uh if for I'm talking about good music well well Debbie C is is towing that line like with scales like this you know the whole tone scale you know where it's like okay he's deliberately trying his best to evoke something that is not grounded right whereas a C major chord you know it that is traditionally in where he's coming from in terms of composing is from this rule based thing. So I think I think Debussy is someone who feels that like no music isn't that way in fact music has traditionally been super rule bound and like about earthly like our egos and oh wow you want to write a a love letter uh you know expressing yourself and how much pain and sorrow you're in yeah forget wow okay Beethoven she's only 17 but for him he's like what if we got out of that what if we changed this changed um the way music felt and I maybe we take it for granted now because we do have all kinds of different music right that and we accept it as this really abstract thing. I don't know how they thought in the 18th century you know uh how they approached it in terms of like oh this is this abstract concept that is ineffable that's tapping into some energy that oh my ideas are everywhere. Right. Um maybe they were just like I'm gonna do something really useful. I'm gonna make a you know I'm gonna make a tune for the king and and it's gonna delight the soul and that's about it. I don't know. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Uh it's hard to get into all that. That comes back to you know the question of intention too because you could hear a piece that who for all you know this comp the composer could have thought eh that one wasn't my best. I kind of like I was under pressure I just kind of wrote something and then for some reason some listeners hear it and they just go like you know sure well but it and in that sense you know it it it doesn't really the intention doesn't matter. Yeah and uh interpretation is just as valid.
SPEAKER_02Yeah yeah well Debbie is clearly with his titles at the end of the preludes and and his open harmonies like he's clearly someone who wants you to feel whatever you feel yourself.
SPEAKER_00I think interpretation sometimes can be just as valid as intention from the artist um but because you can't always know the artist's intentions and there's this idea of the intentional fallacy uh where you don't want to make your intentions known sort of how WC leaves his titles to the end of the preludes to avoid letting the in any kind of intention be known because you might be robbing someone of seeing something in your work that you didn't see. And that also connects back to this idea that we talked about in the beginning of great ideas and art being kind of just these gifts from the universe. Because in that sense if the artist is in a way just the receiver and the giver why should they also be the interpreter I don't know yeah I think we're getting really abstract here I think that the WC does that to you.
SPEAKER_02Like he allows you he permits you to get into that space and he invites that so um yeah read the creative act I definitely definitely blew my mind the first time I read it and it gave me it like you know soothed my I don't know my mind. It's like giving you permission as just an individual you don't have to be any qualified anything in order to understand that you are a creative individual but just because you're a human being on this earth that's surrounded by information and ideas, you um have just as much of a chance of being incredibly creative as any artist or any anyone who claims to be an artist. It's not you know be beholden to just one group of people.
SPEAKER_00And creativity can come into your life through non creative things like packing a suitcase efficient finding like a a cool way to fit everything in your suitcase or like like little moments of creativity like recognizing them and and honoring them throughout the day can be a really fun way to live.
SPEAKER_02It's beautiful to be aware of yeah
