Daniel and Isabel Save Classical Music
Classical musician-turned-stand up comedian Isabel Hagen and classical pianist Daniel Anastasio explore their favorite classical pieces while discussing the creative life. Listen along for live musical excerpts paired with banter between two best friends. New episodes every Tuesday.
For video episodes: http://www.youtube.com/@saveclassicalpod
Follow the show on social media at linktr.ee/saveclassicalpod
Follow Daniel on Instagram @daniel_anastasio_piano
Follow Isabel at https://linktr.ee/isabelhagen
Daniel and Isabel Save Classical Music
Depression and Schubert
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Daniel and Isabel talk about depression, the difference between depression and sadness, and whether great artists need to feel an intense emotional state like depression in order to create. Daniel plays the second movement of Schubert's Piano Sonata in B-flat Major, D. 960 and they discuss its cathartic power.
- YouTube for full video episodes
- Follow Isabel HERE.
- Follow Daniel HERE
- Follow the podcast everywhere at @saveclassicalpod
Have I played Schubert? Are you just imitating what I'm saying? Or do we were we both do you anticipate that? What the hell is happening? What are you doing? Are you mocking me? Okay, I'm gonna play Schubert today. And it's some of the most profound music imaginable. So don't laugh.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02What Schubert is it? Um it's a second movement from his very last piano sonata. Don't laugh. In B flat major. Um but this movement's in C sharp minor. Okay. And he's like dying. He contracted syphilis. Okay. Okay, yeah, now you're not laughing. It's not the last thing. Syphilis comes up. No, I was gonna say it's not the very last thing he wrote, but technically it's the very last thing he wrote, but it's one of his last major works that was written within two or three months of his death. Okay. Um and it the whole piece, the last sonata in B Flat, like do yourself a favor and just listen to this entire thing because it is I mean, it's monumental. It's 45 minutes, it's a big piece, depending on the recordings and who takes the repeats. Um this one pianist, Richter, has a famously slow recording, so it's gonna be even longer. But uh all these beautiful interpretations by incredible pianists. Um D960, that's how they catalog his works. Uh-huh. Just um an expansive and patient and uh profoundly beautiful work. I it covers, I think one of the reasons the second movement really, really speaks to me is because I think it it covers all these aspects of life and especially of mood, where it begins just, I'll just play the very opening, it begins in a really dark place in C sharp minor. Those C sharps that are just there throughout most of the piece, and there's this little duet going on, you know, but it's in a low register, and it's just uh it just can't get out of what's happening. It's really depressed. Right.
SPEAKER_01The repeated figure really makes evokes that feeling of depression where you know you're trying to get out, but you're stuck in that.
SPEAKER_02Stuckness and inevitability, whatever you wanted to call it. Um, and we'll get into the piece a little more, but it made me start thinking about just what it's like this idea we have, we kind of romanticize this idea of oh man, like a composer is really depressed or in a really dark place, and that's when they create some of their most profound works, you know? It's just like, oh, I can't even move. But is that always true? Is that a kind of a fallacy? You know, is that true in our lives? Do we feel the most creative when we're in an incredibly dark and painful period? Um, are we able to be just as productive and prolific when we're in a happy mood and when we're like just killing it and our energy is really high? How do you feel about that? It just maybe even just in your own anecdotally in your own experience, how have you worked best?
SPEAKER_01Well, I don't really write music, so I can't speak to like like maybe if I was a composer or a songwriter, I would be more inclined to like if I'm when I'm depressed, like write a sad song or like you know, like that kind of like music is just such a like direct thing. Yeah. Um, but in terms of like the way I am creative, which is like writing jokes or or writing with words, um I can't be like in the depths of depression. I can be anxious um and I can be like sad, like I can listen to something that makes me cry and I'm I'm emotional and then I can do some work. But if I'm really depressed, like I'm not doing anything, I I'm not creating anything uh of value in that moment.
SPEAKER_02And how would you let's just like really quickly, how would you I mean, I know I think we both understand, but like how would you define depression as opposed to like you're sad or something like that, where it's like if you're having an off day versus okay, I'm I'm stuck in the mud for um weeks or months or years, you know?
SPEAKER_01Right. Well if I'm crying, like even though it can be really painful, that that kind of is moving through it. You know, like having like real like specific feelings of like I mean any kind of stage, like like if I'm really angry or if I'm crying, um, that kind of means like a corner is being turned, it might it might get worse, but something is gonna change. Something's being released um or intensified. But when I'm sorry, my stomach's making noises.
SPEAKER_02Um All voices belong in the podcast.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. But when when I am really depressed, for me, that's where I like I could sit in one place and stare at a wall for a long time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So it's more of an in uh in action feeling.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's like a a a numbness or a deadness or a or just a weight. And in that space, like I the best I can do is to push myself maybe to go for a walk or take a shower, you know?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we were talking about this, like it's more I think I mean it's so easy for the mind to uh be be under the spell of the body so that if you're in a state of depression and it feels your mind feels like there's no way out of this state. And actually your the thoughts available to you in that depressed, like weighted state are limited.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02You can't you can't have access to curiosity, you can't have access to imagination necessarily when you're in a state of just like inevitable numbness or something.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it depends on the level of depression because every you know, it can come for us all, and it's easy to say, like, well, when I'm depressed, I just do the opposite. And it's like, okay, well, but maybe you haven't been that depressed. Like because I've definitely had different levels where I've felt a little cocky, where I'm like, well, I'll get depressed. I get depressed sometimes, but then I just go for a walk and I feel or I listen to a piece of music, and then I've gotten to the depths where I'm like, oh, I didn't know what I was talking about. Like, I'm not listening to anything right now. Yeah, yeah. Um, so there is sort of one, I think the nature of feelings, even though they are not permanent, like there's a saying, feelings aren't facts, and like you know, feelings are are always flowing, and when you're feeling really happy, you think, I'm gonna feel like this forever, or I do at least. And then when I feel really sad, I think I'm gonna probably feel like this forever. And it's what makes the feeling feel like a feeling. Because if I if you can sense that it's fleeting, it's not really a a full experience.
SPEAKER_02Well, and you don't have to identify with it. Right. Like like we're often a a thought happens and then we have a feeling, and then we're we feel like we're identified with that feeling, and that leads to a behavior. So it's kind of this thing of like when you're in a state of depression, the best thing you could hypothetically do is just attempt I don't know how, it might m usually it's from extern external force, hopefully. You have friends or you have other outside sources that'll help you just change the state that you're in rather than change your mind about it. We have those people who are like, why don't you just work out three times a day and eat better? And well, have you done your list of things that and it's like if you're in the habit of doing that as a life raft for the state you're in, great. But most people have to build that uh like almost like it's a physical, it's it's an action to be able to do all those things. Um and how do you get yourself to that action? Um it's it's a state of it's a state of energy more than it is a f state of mind.
SPEAKER_01Right. And I don't have any I'm not a doctor, so I can't speak to like real clinical depression in the bed. But if if you're if it's a circumstantial depression, like you're grieving and you've hit the depression state. Um sometimes it is also good to just honor that and like let like like just let yourself be depressed. Like sometimes I'll be like, let me be so let me let me like just get a bowl of junk food in front of me and like watch the shittiest TV I can think. Like almost like get even more, and it kind of like lets me. I don't know, sometimes it can move me through it quicker. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02By uh not fighting it, or at least acknowledging you're sh showing a degree of awareness. And this was like I got so into meditation, right? And that helped that helps, continues to help me to um understand that just awareing the thing, like if a wearing were like a verb where like to become aware of the thing, yeah, um, helps you with the frame of with the state of mind. I'll just I was just telling you, I got like my haircut today, but I swear to god, we're gonna get back to the music. But I got my haircut and um I don't like to be touched a lot. Like like low touching is not like my love language, you know?
SPEAKER_01What's your love language? I don't know. I don't remember. Mine's touch and words of affirmation, not that you asked.
SPEAKER_02Okay. I seriously don't. I I I don't know. I don't know. I haven't thought I I don't remember. We'll take the quiz later. We'll take the quiz later together on the pod. Um, but I maybe maybe it's just that I don't like being touched by this guy like long. Maybe he just makes you uncomfortable. Just the guy shit, you know. But I I got my beard trimmed, yeah, and he was like, you know, there was a lot of a lot of this, a lot of touching my face for long periods of time. And he'd only, when I called up, I was like, hey, do you guys have a spot available? And they were like, Yeah, but only from this guy who's only been doing he was only a year in. And I was like, Yeah, sure, whatever. I don't care. Yeah. I'm sure it's I'm sure he's great. And I came and it did take extra long, was the only thing. And he was touching my face and my beard, and he was like, it was just a lot of like touching around my mouth. And I started, I never get claustrophobic, but I started becoming claustrophobic where I was my my heart was beating faster and faster, and I was like kind of starting to hyperventilate a little bit. And I was like, I'm gonna be fine, but I am really feeling this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I meditated. I I I was like, Where I told my asked myself, where is this feeling in my body? Is it the right side of my body, the left side of my body, is it in my heart? And the more I tried to focus on where it was in my body, the easier it was, the less I started breathing heavily, and the more I could control it. So I I think this is uh we even talked about this in the last episode, but like awareness is just such a superpower. Where like just being aware of what's happening is the ability to step outside of that dampened state, of that numbed mind, of that uh mind that's under the spell or control of the of the state that you're in, right? The energy state that you're in, and being able to say nothing, just to be aware, not to have an opinion about it, not to judge it, but just to be like, isn't that interesting? Or okay, that that is what my body's doing. So that you stop identifying with what your body is feeling and doing. And that gives you some if anything, it gives you a little psychological relief that you you might have a chance in that moment to let me go for a walk. Right. Let me just let me get out of the house, let me change my state, let me call a friend, let me do something I know is gonna put me in a different state. Let me raise my arms, let me just like do something um that'll gain me access to a different set of thoughts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but anyway, sometimes I'm like, you should call a friend right now, like you know it'll make you feel better, and then I'm like, no, it won't. And then and then sometimes I'll like call you.
SPEAKER_02I wish you would call me more because I I just wish everybody that I was close to would call me more because I love I love talking to people I'm really close to. And I call you. You do. We talk, we talk about I'm not saying I'm not complaining, I'm just saying, like, dude, I could do that every day. I mean, to me, that's like the meaning of life is connection with people that you know you connect with and you what else is there? I for me that is what I value most, and it's what lights me up selfishly. Like it's what lights me up.
SPEAKER_01But and I and I agree, I just I think you're you have the muscle to do it more, but sometimes I'll I'll then I'll push through and I'll call you, and then the part of me is just like, damn it, that did make me feel better. Like there's a little part of you that's just like, oh fine. Yeah. But also how lucky that it helped, you know.
SPEAKER_02So you would say that you write generally or you come up with jokes in a uh in a state away from depression or away from darkness.
SPEAKER_01It's like I have to be one step removed. You gotta be one step removed. I have to be like, well, that happened, or like, okay, that's okay. And but sometimes the act of creating brings me out of the depression or the or the severe anxiety I'm feeling. If I can come up with a joke about it, I can kind of like like, oh okay, I've changed my uh view on this. Yeah. Because now I have some ownership over it and and a positive thing has come out of it, especially a joke, because it's like making people laugh.
SPEAKER_02Well, if you can create a little space, then you can create a little reflection upon it and then create the art even about it. Right. I mean, and maybe that is what's happening here. I mean, you know, whatever. We're not gonna overanalyze like what his intentions or life might have been like, but Schubert was depressed and he was an alcoholic. Yeah, and died at 31. He died at 31 from syphilis, that couldn't have been fun, uh, that he contracted, I think, in like 1822 or something, just a few years before he died. Um so but what's amazing about this piece is it cycles through almost like the stages of grief or something, because uh and this is what Schuber does best, he's starting in a minor key and then gradually somehow gets to a major key in a miraculous way that is like a journey that feels like it's just the flip side of the same coin rather than the story of someone who conquers something. It's so much bigger than just the individual. So let me play a little bit. Um I'll play this first section for you. Uh-huh. And see if you can maybe feel the shift in the light, the shift in the soul that is um that takes a perspective that feels like it'll never get out of this uh dark state, and just shifts it enough to bring about something a little lighter or a little more hopeful, and okay, I'll stop there for a sec. That's the beginning of the middle section. Um So do you feel, did you hear how it expanded out into something a little different and then actually returned to that real darkness before before moving on into like a totally new section where it feels like a new world opens up in this the relative major key? So it's that pedal point.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, and by going a little bit more major in that sort of still very static rhythm, it makes it even sadder because then when it comes back, it's like you know, it's it's a little touch of nostalgia, maybe remembering something that is now lost, and yeah, that's why. But this movement um reminds me of the slow movement of his cello quintet. Oh do you know that piece? It's kind of similar.
SPEAKER_02So beautiful, like kind of boom boom, like just this he's um in the p the plucking uh the pizzicata are this like i inevitable uh pattern.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, he does um like stillness really well.
SPEAKER_02Space and stillness and the energy between notes is like Schubert's specialty. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and as a kid, I I've always found like at music camp, we would play the Schubert Shell Quintet in the second movement, everyone would worship it, and I always found it so boring. I think I just wasn't mature enough for it yet. Schubert's kind of like that.
SPEAKER_02It is so ironic because he died at 31. Yeah. It's like, you know, you're you're let's say you're 26 and you know, you're trying to learn something, and some 75-year-old teacher is like, you're just not ready yet for Schubert. It's like, well, he composed it at 22. But he does have a honestly, like age is just a number. Like the guy had a really mature soul, obviously, at a really young age. I mean, in a profound wisdom.
SPEAKER_01Many people were dying in their 30s, so it was like it's like inflation, you know, like a hundred dollars then is like you know, so like 31 back then. It was at least what 55 now, 60? Still young though.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But Mars Sanders.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um yeah. There there are just a few technical elements that make this give off that feeling of darkness and depression. Uh we already touched on one, which is that. Right, that is just like a clock or a heartbeat or something that is just like keeps it it's it's there no matter what, even as this melody, you know, this duet is happening above it, and then the pattern stays even when the key changes to the beautiful uh relative major. Oh, before I said A was the relative major, that's wrong. E is the relative major. I don't know why I said that. So there.
unknownYou know.
SPEAKER_02Okay, it's beautiful, but it's still it's still the same person who's experiencing those things. So I I like this idea of it being nostalgia or it being memory or something where it's like that same person who's in this pit of despair, it's almost like floating by like a cloud, this vision of like beauty or hopefulness or light or something. And it's like you're still the same vessel experiencing it. Um and that that m that gives even more weight to the darkness.
SPEAKER_01Well, because can you be depressed without memories?
SPEAKER_02I mean like a dog's not depressed. Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean it depends on your definition of depression, but but part of it is like feeling some at least for me, like when I'm the most depressed, it's like I feel disconnected from who I once was. And that's because I remember that, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don't like looking at old anything. I have to say old anything? Like I mean like old memories on my phone. Oh, I don't like memories. I I I'm am I weird? No, I I don't like it either. When people are are, you know, oh look at look at that. Oh that was five years ago. Oh my god. Like I feel nothing but sadness when I look back on old I just want to be I just want to be present. I really do. I don't even want to think about the future either. I just I just want to be here and I want this to be the most valuable thing there is, understanding that this is the only thing that really exists, like uh in some fundamental way. So when I look at I I don't have fond uh memories. I have people in my life who okay, I might be grateful that it's reminding me of someone in my life and I might call them then and there.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02But the past is sad to me.
SPEAKER_01It's sad to me too. We have a lot of home videos from when I was a little kid. My brother just sent me this video of me when I'm maybe four, and I'm like, I'm not gonna die. It's like it's kind of a sad video. Um, but just watching any of that footage, I just start crying. I'm just like, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02And it's not I don't even want to define it. I don't even want to say, oh well, you know, I'm getting older and that's why I'm sad. No, it's not even that. It's just it is like an uncanny feeling to feel to to displace myself from the reality of that and see, whoa, that was my reality then and this is my reality now. And i I think it's just nauseating more than it is even sad. It's just like disturbing. I don't get it.
SPEAKER_01And it's only with technology that we can look back on photos, and I mean, I guess it's pa you know, people got paintings of themselves from when they were younger, but right. There are other versions of it. But it's it's almost like we're not meant to look back.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And okay, and yet there is I mean a beautiful reality to the fact that that exists as a state of being and as a human condition. Um, our ability for our consciousness to remember things and to be able to look back to hold almost too much you know, in our hearts. Right. And that's why maybe that's why I brought up the dog is like a dog aside from trauma that it experiences, which is a real, right? It can it can experience something from years ago, it can be kicked by its owner, and then all of a sudden, if you go to accidentally step on it, it freaks out because his body knows its body is aware, and same with us. We think we're different, but we our body remembers things from very, very, very young.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. Well, dogs I I don't know if they can be depressed, but also have you ever heard a dog sigh? Like, what is wrong with you? What's going on? There's an onion headline, I think. Dog sighs as if it needs to pay rent or something like that. It's like Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what is that? There's there's something to the art of a dog sighing there.
SPEAKER_01Anyway, but generally, yes, the dog is is living more in in the present, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah, and and and and so depression is not available to the dog because uh there's only it's it's mainly present. I mean it's reacting to smells and events and uh you know, like that are happening now, and it's excited about those things. It's just stimulated by the present so much that it can't like get it's really hard for a dog to get bored of you and then get depressed. If it gets bored, it just gets bored and then it waits for you to do something and then it's out of it. I mean it doesn't matter. My dog is just like ready for action any second. I mean it'll uh Jack will whine, you know, uh if if something happens, he'll start or he'll start he'll start whining if we're separated or something. More anxiety than depression. Yeah. Anyway. Back to Schubert. But but I think this is we could make this about, yeah, nostalgia, or it could be what often I find in Schubert is that it's tapping into some just universal truths where it's like there is sadness, there is darkness, and just right on the other side of that, you know, is you know, the understanding that you can hold both um right next to each other, and that you're never one chord away or one, you know, moment away from something that's lighter and happier, or something that's really dark and despairing. Schubert does that better than anyone, and you get that especially, you get that especially in the return. So after we have this journey, I won't play the whole thing, but I mean, this isn't like, okay, let's change scenes and be happy now. This is like coming from the same death, something is emerging out of this darkness. That's why I feel like it's a little bit reminiscent of the stages of grief, where it's like it is grieving, but then how, you know, how anger turns into acceptance and anger, uh, you know, denial and all these things. I mean, it's not always, it's not one specific order, right? These stages can come at different times and in different ways.
SPEAKER_01They don't have to go in that order.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, I I just I don't remember the exact order, but I know that it's a it can be asynchronous. Yeah. But how so how one feeling emerges out of another and then becomes something different. And then this. So he hangs around uh this bright A major key for a while. It actually sings, you know? We've got a song here. We don't have this depressed dirge of a duet happening. We have just a single voice. Eventually he's gonna make his way. Now suddenly a diminished chord isn't a good sign, right? Such a master at reharmonizing the same notes of the melody. So this means something different than this. Means something different than this. You know, all the same that B has gone through its own transformation in that time. And before we know it.
SPEAKER_01There's so much recontextualizing the same notes in this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And it I think he does it even later, too. Yeah, we're about to get to it. So he has this huge, this huge measure of rest. You mentioned patience and space, and then like it's we know what's coming. We just had a five-seven chord. We know what we're about to experience. Except now the bass has a little more to say. In this hopeful ascent out of the depression we started in. I think I haven't played that in a while. Um have you gone through it right now? No, no, no. No, I feel so different than when I I really I got into this piece during COVID because I was I was depressed. And I um it was a real cathartic piece for me. Um to feel the different shadings of uh the nuance of feeling and and it it helped me see a different state of being. You know, it helped me see the the the fluidity of emotion which I needed to feel in the moment, as opposed to this block, you know, that it can feel like a a block in your stomach that's just always gonna be there. But it's like it needs to be massaged by things like art.
SPEAKER_01That's something I also like when I'm depressed, I can't necessarily create anything, but I can I have maybe more of a need for a certain art to consume it. Yeah. Like listening to a really sad piece can be really cathartic in those moments and actually qu comforting. You think, oh, you want to listen to a sad piece when you're depressed, we'll make you more depressed, but it's like, no, it can like it can help like massage or accompany you through those feelings.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you need you need a listener. Yeah. You know, and and the music can be both the music is a listener, yeah. As well as a a speaker, I guess. Or a right. I don't know. It's like you're listening, but it's also listening to you, especially if you're playing it. I think that's what's so therapeutic about playing music is your um you're talking to it and you're creating and you're listening. It's it's there isn't a separation between those things. Usually if you have another person to help you through something, or I'm an ego and you're an ego and we're hashing it out, and hopefully we're both curious enough to be getting toward to some third thing that we both like are like, wow, it isn't that third thing just endless. It's endless what we can discover about the world and we can help each other. But with music, you're also you're there's no barrier. You're creating and listening and injecting you know, your own feelings and and you and your feeling, and it's it's just yeah. I don't know, I never thought about it actually. Weirdly I've never really thought about it in these terms of just how those forces work together.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's my favorite thing you've ever said is that the music is uh also a listener or yeah, that's so feeling that right poetic.
SPEAKER_02And you know Schubert, that's what gets me there. Yeah, seriously. You asked me about this ending. Um because it feels horror.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's uh it feels like acceptance, actually. Yeah, horror. I I I feel this is what's so profound to me about Schubert's music is horror. Just like and there it is. There's horror, there's evil and there's good, there's depression and there's joy, and there's all states of being. And he doesn't he's not giving you an opinion about any of them. He's not helping you through the depression, horror like actively, like someone like Brahms might. Where it's like, we gotta we gotta get together and fight. Like, you know, or even Beethoven is such a fighter, right? Like I'm gonna use my music to like come on, humanity. Hubert is like he's a little more observational. In a way, he's more objective. Um he's just a that a little bit removed um from laying it out on the table as if it's your problem, like his problems are your problem, and he's just saying, like, hey, like isn't there this emotion, isn't there that emotion? Isn't this just like wild the human condition? Isn't this just absolutely wild? And to see it all and to hold it all is enough, you know, to feel and this finally like this little kind of plagal idea, four chord, is such a feeling of finality, and one more, and then like to end, it's like he's resting his head in the very last. It's like he's like looking up at the whole universe, you know, those notes. I don't know, I'm I'm over poetizing it probably, but like it his music, especially toward the end, feels like it encompasses so much more than the individual. Where it's commenting on how your individual experience and humanity connects to something way larger, and witnessing that can be an incredible release and relief even in the most uh darkest parts of your life, and even in your dying years, your dying months, your dying weeks.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02All right, I think that's enough for now. It's good to end. It's good to end on acceptance. Acceptance. That's all we in the end that's all we have. Well, we have to accept our states of being, you know.
SPEAKER_01Right. There's I mean, there's the sort of things you can't accept that you're always gonna fight to change. Yeah. But it's like the ser you know, the serenity prayer. Uh grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. Oh, yeah. Courage to change the things I can't accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can. Yeah. And the wisdom to know the difference. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Schubert in a nutshell.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Um, well, coming away from this podcast, I hope you all listen to this last piano sonata by Schubert or D960, B flat major. And the other movements are the other movements are pretty different, but but have similar themes. Have similar themes of this is everywhere in Schubert anyway.
SPEAKER_01And if you're sick of the piano, the Schubert Cello Quintet.
SPEAKER_02One of the best pieces ever, the Schubert Cello Quintet.
SPEAKER_01And the slow movement of that uh I feel like is a similar pacing and vibe to this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. While we're at it, the slow movement of uh the second second movement of the E flat piano trio is also I mean, and the the string quartet the G major string quartet to me has that same quality. Um really the last four piano sonatas is also and then also listen to all of Schubert. Okay, bye.
SPEAKER_01Bye.
