Daniel and Isabel Save Classical Music
Classical musician-turned-stand up comedian Isabel Hagen and classical pianist Daniel Anastasio explore their favorite classical pieces while discussing the creative life. Listen along for live musical excerpts paired with banter between two best friends. New episodes every Tuesday.
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Daniel and Isabel Save Classical Music
Shostakovich Goes Baroque
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Daniel and Isabel dive into Fugue in A Major, op. 87 by Dmitri Shostakovich.
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So what's this piece you're gonna play?
SPEAKER_00Okay, this is a piece I d rediscovered that I knew like maybe a decade or so ago. I knew of its existence, never played it, and then like last year or this past year, um I kind of started to learn it for a program. And man, I can't even quite play it up to tempo, it's so tough, but it's a beautiful piece that is uncharacteristic of this composer, in my opinion. So I'll be curious if the people at home if they can guess the composer. Might be a little surprising. We'll see. Let me move this out of the way real quick. So Dmitry Shostakovich, not a kind of piece that you might expect from him. Um but why why do you feel like it's kind of an unexpected piece for him?
SPEAKER_01You would expect it to sort of, for lack of better words, go south sooner. Yeah. You know, like it would start like and then we'd go like it might be. It's just like gets evil really quickly.
SPEAKER_02But not even that.
SPEAKER_01It would be more subtle, even. Like it would just be like a boop, like something in there. You know what I mean? What's that prelude you played for me a while back in one of our first attempts at this? Yeah, actually, I was just about to look at that.
SPEAKER_00That does that really well where it's like where it starts in C major. All nice and beautiful, as if it's Bach, and then all of a sudden here and measure like nine. Which there's a shadow or there's a shading.
SPEAKER_01That's what was sort of when you said guess this piece. I was Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, but part of the reason we're and okay, so why does it stay for so long in a happy, major, positive kind of key? Why do you think? First of all, what what kind of piece is this? Like, is this a sonata? Is this a prelude? Is this a Well, I'm it's a fugue. It's a fugue. So the subject of the fugue, the melody of the fugue at the very beginning, is Well, can we say what a fugue is? Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. So a fugue is a type of piece that was started in the really the Baroque era by people like Johann Sebastian Bach. Um I'm sure it was earlier than that, but he's the one who really championed the fugue by writing all these preludes and fugues, 48 of them. Uh one for every key, and then he did it twice. And a fugue starts always with a melody of some kind, in this case, that's the melody or what we call the subject of the fugue. And then that melody gets passed to different voices. So you could have a three-voice fugue, or a four-voice fugue, or a five-voice fugue.
SPEAKER_01And what's a popular fugue that people play in rudimentary piano? Like, no, it's not really a fugue.
SPEAKER_00Um shoot. But all well, just like everything most things by broke composers have counterpoints, so it might sound like they are fugal. Like, for example, even this piece. It's like, okay, you have moments where it's going, uh, right hand, left hand, right hand. You know, it's like passing the voices back and forth between the hands. And in most Baroque music, you do think of things in terms of horizontal voicing or voice leading rather than vertical, like it's not like you know, it's not just like uh melody plus chords, which you get more in Mozart and classical music, classical period music a few years later, but in Baroque music, they are thinking of different voices that are interacting with each other in a special way to create harmony. And Shostakovich runs with this idea from the Baroque period for reasons I'll explain in a little bit. But to go back to the subject, this is the subject or the melody of the fugue, and then that gets articulated in a new voice.
SPEAKER_01And that's the defining feature of a fugue.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then eventually there's yet another voice. So now I have three voices going on at the same time.
SPEAKER_01Playing variations in the same material contrapuntally.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01Somewhat.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a good way of describing it. Contrapuntal just means like the different voices are interacting together. Um, they're reacting to each other. It's a brilliant way to write, it's a very strict way to write. Um, it's like rule-bound, it's actually like maybe represents the most complex and highly structural and advanced way to compose because there are certain rules and there's a certain ratio of like structure that just work out when you do it right. Um, but what's so unique about this particular fugue is that there are no steps in this fugue. There's only these intervals of leaps, and in fact, all it's really doing is outlining one chord. So this is what we call an arpeggio or a broken chord. But really, if you play them all together, these are all the notes of this fugue. That's it. Of this fugue subject, I mean, not the whole fugue.
SPEAKER_01And that fugue subject being the melody that gets repeated and answered in different keys as it goes on.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. So that is highly unusual. If you have, for example, I'll just pick a random fugue of Bach, the fugue from C major book one of the well-tempered clavier. That's it. That's that's the whole fugue subject, and then the next voice comes in. Uh sorry. Um then another one. But it is a nice mix of stepwise motion, like a scale, and leaps, leap, leap, leap, and back to stepping. So that it sounds like it's kind of it's kind of singable, it's kind of catchy, there's variety in it. Um that's what you would expect from a fugal subject.
SPEAKER_01And heavy counterpoint movement or contrapuntal movement in fugues is sort of the nature of almost all fugues because you're getting like voices against each other. However, the thing that made me think this is a little like Shostakovich was the specific contrapuntal rhythm in this. There's something about it, even though it's tonally not quite the world he usually lives in, rhythmically, and there's just something about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, let me go on about that. But but just to wrap up this point about why it feels like maybe not Chasukovich for a while, is that okay, we're in this major harmony, and like because that's the subject, we gotta stay with that and express that in three different voices, at least three different voices, before we can go on. You know what I mean? So rather than the prelude I played earlier, where he can just divert into a minor or a difficult kind of like more conflict arising music. Here, we gotta get through this subject in all the different voices. This is an E major, and then finally an A major. And then what's beautiful is that he does stay in this brightness for a little bit longer. You know. And then only here he finally goes to F sharp minor. That's what also gave me a clue. And and he just sits in that harmony. It's so beautiful. I feel like this is like um, I think of a kaleidoscope when I think of this piece or something, where it's like these shapes are just like rotating or changing in in color or an orientation, but it's like you're looking through the same lens. So it's like um yeah, like something is changing color in the light or something is rotating um and you're kind of receiving it rather than it's not like it's not like a person who's going through a journey, and to me it's like, wow, listen how harmony itself, just harmony, just a chord, can be the subject of a fugue.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00I I think that is just so such a beautiful concept. I've never heard it before in a fugue, and I'm just like drawn to this piece because of that. It is so uh beautiful how it lets you just feel harmony and it's patient in a way that Shasukovich often is not, right? Like sometimes he's trying to disrupt the flow. In this one, he's allowing it to unfold organically. Just so beautiful. Okay, so you mentioned the rhythmic um element that makes it feel a little more Shastukovich-y, let's say.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, just the sort of almost uh hyper basic rhythm rhythm, but you know, like boop boop boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, dot, dot, dot, like it's just very uh you know, like in Vach, you get a little more boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You know, there's more variety, but it's such a uh straightforward concerto. Um so that it's a level is dorky. That was the first clue. It's a little dorky. And then if it was how it expected, then the counterpoint would be not in it would be in a more off-key. Right.
SPEAKER_00It's just like, yup, it's just an arpeggio, and it's just this rhythm. But it up, but it up, but he's he his conversations in his music um aren't it subtle.
SPEAKER_01Right, and it's it's the same, like in the violence on it, it's just the open strings, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It's just he takes these really simple phrases and then spins them out.
SPEAKER_00I'm trying to think too of like the um yeah, whatever. He he does this in in so much of his music, the um uh uh piano trio.
SPEAKER_01The piano uh quartet It's just like bum chut chut chut, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's like almost hyper simplistic, but it's not um the expression isn't simple. Right. It's just I think that gives the effect for a lot of his music to be felt in a very raw way. It's just very like we don't need to dress this up in it at all. In fact, this is a subject of I think that's why the Baroque era is such a good fit for him in terms of an inspiration, is because even though like someone like Bach and that fugue is is varying it up a little more, but he does well with tight structures, Shostakovich. He's like, give me he actually imposes a lot of structure on his music, and he's not into like the big flourishes of the romantic era where you're like, ah, let's fill out harmony in a loose way. This is like this is what I'm giving you, take it or leave it. Um, let's compose a fugue out of this.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And uh it leads to a really beautiful conversation in the rhythm. So like we get what we call hocketing. So that is where like one voice is filling the space that the other voice is leaving in certain parts of the bar. I don't know if you if you know like a cappella groups that do this, but that could be really fun where you know someone's going like ho ho boom boom boom hoop boom boom boom at one point. Or like I go. Okay, okay, go.
SPEAKER_01Like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's like you're doing something, and then I'm at feeling in the rest, and you're getting this uh almost like a stereo effect.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Of like someone is yeah, it's just like the same notes could be done by one person, but it is uh Tambral Tambrally more interesting to have it being passed back and forth.
SPEAKER_01Right, I can go bum bum bum boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom or we could go bum boom bum bum bum bum bum bum well I can't sing.
SPEAKER_00I literally can't sing You can't sing, is that a thing? I just haven't s actually sung in like a long time.
SPEAKER_01See, I have like dude Yeah, so when you do it like that, it just sounds a lot different.
SPEAKER_00Like automatically sharp. Um so yeah, moving on from my singing lesson. And you're also a really good singer. Um so yeah, uh I I just find it really beautiful that this is uh it takes a lot of humility to make a fugue like this, I think. That to make a fugue that is just like, what if I just did an arpeggio? And and by the way, the origin of these preludes and fugues is really uh an organic and genuine inspiration.
SPEAKER_01Right. I don't get humility from his simplicity though. I get anger and sarcasm and bitterness.
SPEAKER_00I just mean from this particular piece.
SPEAKER_01No, from the I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Well, does it get does it get it definitely heats up. I mean, I didn't feel the better part of it.
SPEAKER_01But it's not that it sounds angry, but it's it's sort of like when someone's like, Yeah, no, I'm fine. Like, there's a little like, yeah, no, like bah da like what you want me to write a you want me to write a fugue? Here you go. Because we know he was there was a lot of sarcasm in his music because of what he was dealing with.
SPEAKER_00Sure, maybe not. That's how you're playing it. It is how I'm playing it. I think it's also the range. Like, like, all high up here is just so like glistening and heavenly. Yeah. Um, it like I said, it does later on, it does heat up. Um by the way, this is the fugue in A major um from his set of prelude and fugues Opus 87. So if you wanted to check it out yourself, there's much better recordings than me just playing it. I'll say that. Oh, for sure. And there's um, yeah, Igor Levitt has a really beautiful music video on online that I love. Uh he plays it really beautifully. And the person it was written for, Tatiana Nikolaeva, um, has a couple, I think, live recordings of her playing all the preludes and fugues of Shasukovych, like start to finish. She she championed these pieces and he wrote them for her and worked on them with her. She won this uh competition, Bach competition in Leipzig. Apparently, she came and they were like, So, what are preludes and fugues you want to do? You you can only play a handful. And she said, Well, which ones do you want me to do? She had them all memorized, which is uh unheard of. That's insane. She ended up getting gold and winning the competition. Uh-huh. And Shotzikovich, who was on the jury, was so stunned by her playing he immediately was inspired to write these preludes and fugues specifically for her. So this set comes out of a huge inspiration um, both from Bach and also from her specifically. And um I don't know, I think you can hear that. It's a very inspired music, some of his most underrated music. People love his symphonies and his chamber music and um like his string quartets, for example, are probably the most famous thing that he's done. Um but very often people come to these preludes and fugues for the piano, and they're like, oh my god, I didn't realize he wrote these. These are really unique and special, and each brings such a different character. I mean, there's like there's believe me, you get the militaristic sort of more sarcastic Shostakovich in these two. So you you get that.
SPEAKER_01This is where context is so important.
SPEAKER_00This is F sharp minor, by the way. Go ahead. Cool. Sorry, just for the list.
SPEAKER_01For the list, F sharp minor.
SPEAKER_00Um context matters, you were saying.
SPEAKER_01Context matters because if you played all these and then within all this, I hear that beautiful consonant fugue.
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01What that's more shocking. Much more of a statement.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Whereas if you play it alone, it's just like, ah, this is pretty.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, right. The in the context of the whole set, you know, you play that and then you play the fugue?
SPEAKER_01And yeah, if I play a sinister, sort of evil happy dance, you know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if you come from I mean I forgot what comes right before, but yeah, if you were coming from and then all of a sudden, okay, you you you finish whatever, however it is. And then it's suddenly like a balm. It's like a relief to get this A major harmony and this glistening register shining through after like a militaristic darkness that is the reality of World War II.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00That he was affected by profoundly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you hear this in that context, maybe you're starting to cry. Like it's the same with in movies when you hear music put on top of an image, yeah, and it's like, oh my god, why am I crying? But if you heard the music without the image, you might not be as affected, and vice versa. You see the image without the music, you're not as affected. Yeah. And it's all just it's all context.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That's why I love doing stuff with poetry, like playing music with a poet that I really love. Um after doing that, I I I cannot hear this music the same way. It is married to the words that I have paired the music with. And I've heard from the poets I work with I don't want to read this poem anymore by myself. I have to have your music with it because it has infused the poem with a new meaning. I'm so about that. I'm so about collaborating between the art forms, not just to like give more access and entry points for people who uh could use um just more entry points for understanding what's happening, but also like it makes it it adds, it just adds, it just adds more. The only danger with it is it affects the authenticity of the original interpretation, and that just is what it is. I just don't care about that. I'm cool with that because this thing of like poetry and music, let's say, uh is a brand new thing. Um it's like a new piece of art now that uh you know. Is happening, but you you would have to be okay with okay, this piece by Ravel called A Boat on the Ocean is no longer about a boat on the ocean, it's about uh, you know, whatever this poet is talking, it's about the self and how it goes through a transformation because of a time in their life that they went through, and you just have to give in to that change of context.
SPEAKER_01I love it. You just and it's so hard to avoid because as a classical music performer and classical music lover, I have the experience where some pieces have context based on when I first experienced those pieces and what was going on in my life. And I can't divorce those two things, whether I like it or not. Like uh, you know, oh this this um Brahm sonata I learned in high school. I remember being, you know, really in love with this person, and then they they broke up with me, and I but I was still practicing this piece, so I the heartbreak really got into it. So whenever I hear that piece, I think about that, or or oh, this quartet I played at my favorite chamber music camp growing up, and so I always think of that. And you just we can't, you know, unless you're hearing something for the first time, just in a con a concert hall, you know, what was going on earlier that day that's being evoked now. Yeah. So I don't know, it's all context matters, and um well, I just don't think the argument of trying to f trying to have everyone experience music in its purest form. Yeah. I guess it's a it's like a fun or valiant pursuit. I don't know, valiant is the right word, but it's what's really gonna you're not really gonna ever reach that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I I I think the question should always just be like, what is gonna move people the most?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Like, is it is it stripping everything down and being like, okay, nobody clap and just listen to this music in its purest form? We have the most authentic version of this concert. Uh like, you know, this is exactly the way that Shotzukovych intended. I know it, and we have the best Shotzukovych player. Everybody shut up. No, you're not allowed to feel any feelings other than World War II. And like, I mean, how do you restrict people's imagination and context?
SPEAKER_01I mean, there is value to I think all like classical music performances do have value in this, as long as people aren't like literally distracted by something else, like being on their phone, because even being bored is a state where then your mind finds a way to it, it can be a state that precedes creativity. Yeah. Like boredom is a a really great place to reach. And because I was at a classical music performance recently, and I was like, I'm kind of bored. Yeah, I was like, but this is good. This is where I start having ideas, and my mind wanders. It's like a place at the very minimum for you to just think about even other stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But it's you're still being affected whether you like it or not, by the context you're in and the music you're hearing. But of course, yeah, my goal as a performer is to provide not boredom, is to provide emotion for you to feel something that's either like joyous or really sad or and and usually context only helps.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it doesn't restrict. Like, I think people want this information about you know how Shotzikovych composed, why he composed it, what were his intentions, but then you have to be able to give the audience really allow them or give them permission, not that they need it, to be like, okay, this is how this was composed, but also there's a lot of different ways to feel this. For example, let me pair it with this poetry that has nothing to do with that, and then see if you find that beautiful.
SPEAKER_01I do, you know, so right, and also an artist's intentions, though they can be informative and interesting. At the end of the day, like you when you make a work of art and you put it out there, people are gonna interpret it however they interpret it. And it could be something that the artist didn't intend, but it kind of becomes its own living, breathing thing once you put it out. And I think it's beautiful when people have different interpretations than you even intended about your music or your movie or your whatever you did.
SPEAKER_00Definitely. And in classical music, we tend to be a little too offended or disturbed when someone like reacts in a way that isn't what we deem um true to the music or true to the context of the music. Right. And I think that's really limiting. It's limiting, it's certainly limiting our audience. Um and it's also like limiting our own imagination for what the music could offer now. I mean, I say a lot that if most of these or any of these composers were alive today, the first thing they would ask is like why are you still playing like where's where's your music or where is your version of the music that could keep it fresh? Because we live in 2026, like it's a different time with different contexts. Like, what are we doing to update the um musical landscape um or like the history of this repertoire without cheapening it and without losing uh its essence? And I think it's very possible. I don't think you need to have this strict way of doing it. I think how to maintain the underlying spirit of it is the most important thing. First and foremost, we need to figure out what that is. What is the underlying spirit of this piece, or what is through context, and that's our job is like what is Shasukovich essentially conveying here? Now, what can I do to bolster that, you know, um, and bring audiences in simultaneously? I mean, it's not it's not the easiest thing to do in the world, but we gotta chip away at that. Have to, otherwise, it will die, or just because if it doesn't die, die, it will remain more like as this museum piece um that is like um more of a historical document that we bring to life occasionally. I mean, I think good performance.
SPEAKER_01Are you saying that classical music needs to be saved?
SPEAKER_00I think I think that classical music is always at least that, but I think it has way more potential to be much um much more relevant and accessible and inviting than that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I just I I never feel like I'm like, oh, I just wish it were more accessible. Like I what I've what I feel is something I think tangential to that, which is just this is such a beautiful piece of music. I want to just share this with people. And it's not like, oh my god, how could you not know about this? Or we must, it's it's simply wow, I'm really moved by this piece right now. I want to go like play it for people.
SPEAKER_00That's not the feeling I get from most classical musicians. No, no, and I and I love that, and I wish there were more there was more of that.
SPEAKER_01But my feeling of that is not like I don't want that to then spin out into like Isabel is saving me like saving this music by, you know, this podcast is sarcastically named, obviously. But I don't know, I just because once you once you uh I don't know what I'm saying, it's a slippery slope when you feel like all this music you put it into one bin of music that must be like more ex people should be more exposed to. For me, it's just sort of like piece by piece. Like it is. I happen to know this piece by Brahms really well, and boy, is it beautiful. And like, yeah, why don't I go play it for somebody and maybe they will enjoy it too?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but that that's precisely it is you need to be connected yourself to the music apart from I should be.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And like that is what I care most about is like encouraging other musicians to let's just be honest. Like, what do you like? Maybe it's a history, maybe it's a historical context. You're like, I go crazy over Beethoven, and man, isn't it so cool? How he was it's crazy how he was deaf and writing this. Listen to this. If you say that with passion and conviction and genuine authentic emotion, boom, you have audience connection. If you're saying if you're like, I don't really care about the historical stuff, I just love this chord. Every time I come to this chord, I cry. And like, might you have curiosity as to why?
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Uh like if you actually care, you will dig into why. And it maybe have to do with theory, it may have to do with just voicing, maybe it has to do with, I don't know. Maybe it has to do with just look, I've explored all that. It's not any of that. It just hits me. I don't know why. That's beautiful. You don't have to know why.
SPEAKER_01But sometimes you can identify patterns, and you're like, oh, I really love the like whenever it's a deceptive cadence, or like when it goes to the six chord instead, you know, instead of the one.
SPEAKER_00That's legitimate too. It's just like that excitement and connection and energy that you feel with the material is where we need to get more of. That we need we need to get more of that as musicians, so that then, by the way, then there's a whole nother set of skills called communication. That I'm sorry, like it is our job to communicate in some way to our audience our passion, our pat our genuine passion for this stuff. If you have it, if you can do that from just playing, more power to you. I just personally realized I can't. I can I can do it from playing to a degree where some people will be moved by my playing, other people will just be kind of bored, other people will be. I I just think that's how playing works in 2026. It's like, dude, I can get people, I can get more attention from people, the audience, and a more active listening if I do at least a little bit of verbally communicating what it is I love about the music. Gotta get in touch with that, gotta be able to communicate that in some way, shape, or form, and then watch how people listen to you play. It changes it. Oh, yeah, totally changes it. A little goes such a long way.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yeah, it's it's saving the moment, really. It's saving the experience in that moment in that hall or in that room, just giving it a little context, making it just a tiny bit more accessible, so that they can have the privilege that trained musician that the the untrained listener can have the privilege of an of a trained listener. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01To have it do what it does for us, you know.
SPEAKER_00And get right into it. Don't go, don't do the route of like, you know, oh, I'm so honored to be like, wow, this is such a special dude. Don't assume it's special. Don't assume any of this is special. Right. I mean, don't assume Beethoven's special until you actually dig into the material and start figuring out what you love about it. That's the hard part is like getting over all these um entitled feelings we have about the music. Like, you know what? Erase the composer's name, erase all the markings, start looking into it, and figure out what you like about just the notes. Like, just have more curiosity.
SPEAKER_01Erase the markings.
SPEAKER_00That's that's something I've been doing. Like, uh, yeah, I've been doing these videos on YouTube where my friend erases the expressive markings, all the dynamics, the tempos, and the composer. And I have to try to figure out, I have to guess what they are and who the composer is. And it's been, I'm like wrong a lot of the time, and it's really interesting, it's really revealing, and it forces me to think critically about the music in a way that you don't normally. Normally you're like, Well, this is Beethoven, so it goes this way, and oh yeah, this is a Beethoven forte, so it needs to be this way. Where we're we have a language already for it, and it prevents us from cultivating a certain imagination about the music, I think. Right. I think there should be a workbook that's just like, mmm. I should probably copyright that.
SPEAKER_01But yeah, I think it's already copyright. Don't don't try it anyone.
SPEAKER_00I just think it's someone's gotta do it, where it's just like a workbook of blank page, I mean, pages of blank scores or mark markings erased.
SPEAKER_01And there's a key in the back so you can see what it is.
SPEAKER_00And there's answers in the back. Yeah. And you gotta just see what you can do with it. I mean, even if because even if you're wrong, it's interesting.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's not about being right, it's about your own creative exploration. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And the composer might even be like, well, that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_01Like it but it doesn't matter because it's all in the context of education. So it's and also it doesn't matter because it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_00Nothing matters. All right, let's wrap up.
SPEAKER_01All right.
SPEAKER_00Got on my soapbox for a minute there.
SPEAKER_01No, it was good. Thanks, everyone. No, it was good.
SPEAKER_00It was good. It's fine. That's Shastakovich. That's his vibe. It's fine. All right. Well, enjoy all the preludes and fugues by Shastakovich. Just a little light listening on maybe a Sunday afternoon.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, and then try the Bach out. Try the 48 Preludes and Fugues by Bach.
SPEAKER_01And don't forget the Italian concerto.
SPEAKER_00Oh, of course. Bye, everyone.
unknownBye.
