Daniel and Isabel Save Classical Music
Classical musician-turned-stand up comedian Isabel Hagen and classical pianist Daniel Anastasio explore their favorite classical pieces while discussing the creative life. Listen along for live musical excerpts paired with banter between two best friends. New episodes every Tuesday.
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Daniel and Isabel Save Classical Music
Clair de Lune
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Daniel and Isabel dive into Debussy's Clair de Lune.
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Today I'm gonna play one of the most famous pieces in all the piano literature. WC starts this way up in the clouds, gazing at the moon. Slowly but surely we're making our way down to earth with this bass note here. Each of these phrases is like us reaching for something spiritual, some connection, fulfillment, and then there's this bitter sweetness to this chord. It's this minor second here on the bottom. Melancholy. It's this fragility, vulnerability, and kind of realization that all of our human wants and passions, desires, dreams are going to fade. But first we can reach for them courageously and passionately and find some beauty in how they'll eventually fade, too. That augmented chord. Edging. Edging, that space uh that is created between reality and our dreams, our hopes, our desires, our um what like human con the gift of human consciousness, which is to want something more than what's just right in front of us.
SPEAKER_02And to take from sort of the spiritual and extra what's other, you know, the otherworldly and take it in and process it as humans. That didn't really make sense. But but I was thinking about the beginning when you were like, we're up in the clouds. And then when it goes down and it's played, that same passage is played more filled in.
SPEAKER_01Right, because that's the opening. And he could continue with the Okay, sure.
SPEAKER_02That's like the humanization.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. I I hadn't thought of it that way. That it's like the seed of the thought or the sometimes a register, like literally where we are on the piano or where the comp composer chooses to put the music in is is poetic. That alone, you know, rather than I mean, obviously, it's like unrecognizable down there almost. There's something like it's not just a concept, it's not just uh superficial that this register leads itself to a kind of gazing upward and a feeling of hope and wonder, you know, that I guess Debusy through this descent like you were describing is us coming back to is it coming back to reality or is it gaining confidence in that small thought that we had in the opening?
SPEAKER_02And it's still in the same register, it's just now supported more. Yeah. With more sort of humanity or coming down to earth. I don't think of it as a confidence, although I like that. I think of it more as like this is the pure soul part in the beginning. Like it's just a soul from something non-human, and now we're attaching that soul and contextualizing it a little bit more. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's more um also could be more communal. Like now this came from the individual to all of humanity. Or at least some kind of commonality between us in this search that we're not alone. It's so beautiful, and then it's almost like thwarted by this uh pain. You know, the pain of to me, um, a melancholy about the ephemerality of life, of you know, that everything is fleeting, necessarily, and everything beautiful, especially, is fleeting. We can only hang on to it for a split second. And the distance between these cores is what's so profoundly beautiful, right?
SPEAKER_02Mm-hmm. And the more you try to hold on to it, sort of the more painful it is. It's like a lack of acceptance of the ephemeral ephemerality.
SPEAKER_01This is like passion building. And this piece is about uh dancers. It is? Well, kind of. I mean a bergamasque is a type of dance, but it's also a style of folk music, but that's the title of the because this is this is one of three pieces in a in a suite, right?
SPEAKER_02Right. We only know this one.
SPEAKER_01Well, this is by far the most famous. But the poem that it's based on by Paul Verlaine describes these kind of masked uh dancers that a suite is called what?
SPEAKER_02That it's from that the suite. Okay, which is based on the poem.
SPEAKER_01Well, uh this I just know that this the poem by Paul Verlaine is called Claire Delune. Okay. So the specific piece is uh inspired by that poem. Okay. And it is describing this kind of wonderful celebration of these people who are dancing under the moonlight who are also quite sad at the same time. So it's like it's a celebration of life and an acknowledgement that it's all simultaneously fading. It's like what can we do but celebrate all of life, you know, including its vanishing. And including it's just the nature of reality. It's not something that you know, you can't have happy thoughts without the sad, you can't have darkness without light. The the moon is providing light, but it's also in darkness. And we're constantly living in this kind of shadow, you know, except when we're like directly under a kind of light of the moon. So I mean, I think whatever, you can get as deep or superficial as you want with this stuff. What I care about is how Debbie portrays these emotions through sound, you know. After this big buildup. I mean, it's so beautiful too how a composer can have one single note, one single melodic note that changes profoundly as the harmony underneath it changes.
SPEAKER_02It's all context.
SPEAKER_01It's all context. One note, but so beautiful. This is in a more grounded place than we started. But it's like waves of emotion. I mean it's so beautiful how Debussy um sometimes he can really portray water really well, you know, as an impressionist. Um he writes pieces that that sweep along the keyboard in a way that hadn't really been done before, you know, because in this sort of style, he's not afraid to stay in one harmony for a while, for probably too long, you know, according to other composers around that time, or right before, where it's like the interest in in composers like Brahms or late romantics were to, where's the change? Where exact you know what I mean? Like, how are we moving contrapuntally and where are we headed? But for Debussy, texture now and color in and gesture is becoming so important to the way he paints the musical environment that almost like an impressionist can sit in one color for a while. You don't need to uh, you know, have these distinct uh colors. You can really imagine a a world of one.
SPEAKER_02What makes it because there are other composers who aren't French impressionists who do sort of uh arpeggios and and almost that same melody and harmonic rhythm and that kind of uh pattern, but what makes is it like the use of the pedal and the speed of the notes, or what makes this a French impressionist? What makes it more like water?
SPEAKER_01I think pedal does matter. Um I think register matters a lot so that you know like he has a really deep understanding of how the piano works. Right. So that it's not um sometimes composer's music is very translatable to other instruments, right? Where it's like a Bach, you know, is my immediate example where I feel like some of his uh preludes and some of his fugues could go on a bunch of different instruments. You can have it on the organ, you can have it on the clavichord, sorry, the harpsichord. Um you can even split it up into a string trio and it would sound great. The Goldberg variations sound fantastic on string trio. Someone did an arrangement of that. Yeah, have you played it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Sometimes we think it as like a lot of people at their weddings will only want a string trio instead of a quartet because it's cheaper. Yeah. But the repertoire for string trio is so much more limited and so much harder because you're compensating for one less instrument. Yeah, I like it. So so many times we've just brought the Goldberg variation arrangements and tried to sight read them. These are actually really hard.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're really, really hard. And you get an appreciation probably for what a pianist has to do as a one person trying to bring out all the voices. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think Debbie C beautifully uses um the instrument that he's on, you know, as a pianist, to I mean, and and as a performer, you do have to be sensitive to these things too. You're like, oh wow, how does it sound like water? Okay, well, let me take away the pedal and play a little less sensitively. I mean, I also played a wrong note, but you know, if you if you don't voice correctly, it does ruin that effect because uh you see more like a pointalistic thing rather than the larger brush strokes.
SPEAKER_02Yes, although I will say the harmony is still very impressionist sounding. Yeah. Even without the reverb and the pedal and free verb, what am I saying? By the way, this uh reminds me the chromaticism of that.
SPEAKER_01Right. But that that harmony this harmonic motion uh really reminds me also of uh we at some point we're talking about Caroline Shaw, but this is a song of hers, that kind of median motion where it's moving in thirds. It's called How Do I Find You? But it's it's a beautiful uh harmonic motion because it leaves things in a searching quality rather than the normal tonic, subdominant, dominant dissonance resolution, crunch like dissonance resolve, dissonance resolve.
SPEAKER_02That's sort of you know That's what we're used to. We're used to that in classical music. Right. I think that's why music like the Caroline Shaw you were playing or this Claire Delune people latch onto it in such an intense way because it really does tap into that like lost uh grand feeling of just like the the mysteries of life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a s it is a search that is never going to end. Yeah. And I think that feels awe-inspiring and also like simultaneously terrifying. Right. Like we're on the precipice of something. Right. Um now, does it God? My pedal has been freaking out. Sorry. Uh this seems hopeful, right?
SPEAKER_02We're actually a little more your typical.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That moves. That's kinda cool. It might be like going to A flat or something. But all these seventh chords and ninth chords is like it's leaving it so open. And it's gonna go da da.
SPEAKER_02It could just flop it instead. It goes. Just keep searching.
SPEAKER_01And then E flat minor for a sec. And then even higher. Then reaching. And there's that augmented chord that is so uh tugs at your heartstrings. And then finally we do return, but instead of down here where we were before. We're an octave higher. There's a cloud clouds back up. And then what if we climbed even higher than that? What is up there? I mean we're in like a galaxy right now. And then it all just tumbles down. That is so gorgeous. It it is like we're soaring up here. And then a gust of wind. Or there's a line in the Paul Verlen poem about these tall fountains that are sobbing with ecstasy. And I feel like there could be a little bit of that here. It's like pure ecstasy and joy. Um, but it's sobbing. Those are like giant teardrops. Giant tears that are falling. And then we have to catch our breath. And now the melody's gonna return. But when it does, notice how the harmony has changed underneath it. Just that just that C flat, that bittersweetness. It's like a deeper knowledge. It's like a pain that comes with wisdom. This is like all the dancers starting one by one to leave. We do end looking upward.
SPEAKER_02We do resolve.
SPEAKER_01We do resolve, and we end up kind of gazing again at the moon.
SPEAKER_02Right, it is resolved, but it's voiced almost not resolved.
SPEAKER_01Because I guess the true truly resolved resolution would be that's with the D flat on top, but we have the fifth. It's almost like ending it with that question. Oh man. That'd be brilliant. Yeah. It also, you know, this piece starts with such ambiguity because the key is D flat, but you don't know that until the third chord, because this is an F minor and this is an F minor triad, so which that is in the end, that mystery is resolved in the recap of the melody because we have. Oh, okay, it's D flat major. But in the recap, it's a full expression of F minor. So he's he's leaning into that melancholy in the return. And this feels extra suspended, not just because it's up here, not just because we're in minor all of a sudden, but because this F is like a pedal point that's returning with every measure. It's this constant until we. Finally descend. So there's just there's so many little details like that that enrich or enhance that feeling.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01It's just one of those pieces. It's one of those pieces that deserves to be as famous as it is.
SPEAKER_02But is it also just as famous as it is because it happened to be used in a few very like popular commercials? Like are there other well obviously I love the piece. It's it's so beautiful.
SPEAKER_01Like what effect does that have?
SPEAKER_02Well, because are there other pieces that we just don't even hear? And and how much of the familiarity is in how much are we influen how much are we influenced by familiarity?
SPEAKER_01Probably a lot. I I'm not gonna discount that. I think I'm just relieved that upon further examination, there is evidence for why this is so goddamn beautiful. It's not just um I I don't I didn't go back and look and say, well, you know, there's actually not a lot going on here.
SPEAKER_02Right. Like but does that ever happen where you think something is so moving and then you analyze it and you actually think, eh, it's garbage.
SPEAKER_01I'm trying to think of examples. Can you think of an example? I I do like we were talking about this earlier where it's like that moved me. Now let me figure out why it moved me. Why it moved and there's usually a reason. It's not just random.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and there's a lot of there are a lot of pieces that I just love, and I I can tell you why they move me because of the harmonies and the chords that are being used and the voicing. And then we have friends whose names we won't say, but we have certain people who would scoff at us liking those pieces and would use the same things that I like about it against the piece. Like, well, yeah, because it's just this chord progression, of course you like it. Yeah. It's you know, you're it's almost like you're being duped.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's right, oh, of course, the deceptive cadence to a flat six, right? Oldest trick in the book.
SPEAKER_02And it's I mean, obviously there's some merit to that, but it's not like all art has to be a crazy inventive new thing. I mean, think about films. There's some really weird movies that I've found really interesting and I enjoy. I also like just really well done simple films.
SPEAKER_01Also, like, why do I love Ace Ventura pet detective? Like, like why do you love Ace Ventura? Because it's hilarious. But I mean, maybe comedies, especially like that, where it's like I think uh you know, uh basically you have to appreciate something on its own terms. Whereas like some people compare apples to oranges, some people are like this Paul Thomas Anderson film is so much more profound than Dumb and Dumber, too, you know. Right. But it's like, okay, like you you have to immediately uh like come in or um on that movie's terms in order to enjoy it. Like analyze it for it. Don't analyze it against something that it doesn't deserve or need to be analyzed against. And the same can probably be stated about music, where like uh you know, um a piece, uh maybe a a fluffy small piece by Tchaikovsky might feel cheesy next to um something that Brahms poured his soul into that is like very, very uh carefully and uh uh worthy of analysis, let's say, that he worked on for months. I mean, it's it's easy for people to say, well, Tchaikovsky's a little more cheesy or something, but it's like well, his influences are different, his purpose for writing it is different.
SPEAKER_02It's a context, and probably I'm sure you can think of comedians criticizing other comedians where you're of course there's all sorts of different we were having a conversation earlier about different stand-up comedians on like sort of party acts versus not party acts, like people who are Yes. But what I find interesting is the more time goes on, and the more because we don't just forget artists when they die, right? A lot of artists, especially classical music composers, we still talk, we're talking about Debut C, we're talking about Beethoven, yeah, and we still talk about dead comedians like George Carlin and Richard Pryor. So the more time goes on, just the more artists there are that we're talking about, and the more works, the more works are in the canon of and different styles are like done over and over again to the point where now we can say, Well, why would you ever compare, you know, Dumb and Dumber to um Jim Carrey's you know, one flew over the cuckoo's nest. Yeah, one is you know deep and quality and one is like dumb and dumber. Yeah. But to counter that, you know, when movies like Dumb and Dumber were first starting to be made, I could understand people, you know, finding them to be like, well, what is this? Like what and were the people making them trying to, I don't know if this is a wild idea or makes any sense, but were the people making those movies that we now categorize as like, well, it's a dumb comedy, and you meet it at the dumb comedy level. But when it was first out, it was just this new movie. And and what was the intention? Were they, you know, just stooping to make something that was, you know, more easily digestible? Were they just trying to be funny and the only way they knew how I you know, but now that we have like everything is so categorized and so defensible because we have so much other stuff like it to compare it to. Yeah. It's it is like, well, why would you compare Paul Thomas Anderson to the hangover? You know? Yeah, yeah. And it's like, well, yeah, you sh you shouldn't now, but but when there was less out there, it was almost easier to compare them. Is that anything? Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think I think it's it's nice to remember that in the present time, whenever that present time is, it should feel like a sandbox. Where you mean, in other words, like people are just trying to make m let's say movies or music either for entertainment, either to be profound, either maybe sometimes in the same movie, you know, and and and it shouldn't there is no category yet, like you're saying. Right. Um and then these things calcify into genres that that we look back on and say, aha, that's a genre, like the Western is a genre that becomes a cliche. But at the time when the Westerns were coming out, it was just this new inventive thing that felt creative and alive. And like so, and uh what I love, I guess, especially is when a composer contains has the feels clearly feels the freedom to write in a lot of different modes and genres, even within their own repertoire, like Mozart. I mean, is obviously silly a lot of the time, right? He'll he'll write a theme and variations on Twinkle Twinkle because many, many different reasons to show off, to play to the crowd, to entertain people, to show how hey, look what I can do. You know, and I can change the harmony and I can throw this around. And he'll also write incredibly beautiful deep music like the fantasy and D minor. So it's like let's all it's kind of like let's all relax with the comparing, you know?
SPEAKER_02Well, let's all relax with comparing, but also I think this is gonna counter that. Does like do genres kind of excuse shitty art sometimes? You know, and to like the extreme version is now with all like there's so much content on social media, and like there's a category called like influencers, and their videos are sometimes like just them getting ready in a mirror, and you kind of can't criticize it in a way because like well, they're doing they're doing the thing that so many people do. It's it's a get ready with me, like it has a has a name. So you kind of and you find yourself watching these things, yeah. And so you almost can't criticize it in the same way because it has because we've put a name on it. I mean, you can still just say I hate get ready, get ready with me videos, or I hate horror films, or I hate that you can hate genres, but then you're limiting yourself because there could be someone who does really compelling get ready with me videos. There could be a horror film that you might love if you actually let yourself watch it, but you quote, don't like horror, so you never watch it. Yeah. So it's both very genres are both very limiting, but also allow us to accept like so much more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and it's a little bit on the topic of structure and rules are necessary for creativity, too. Right, right. So, like what does it even mean for something to be genreless? I mean, you know, there's so many categories now of everything that it's okay to be in one. Like, like in other words, that's not the point, you know? Like the point is more what do you do, what voice do you have inside of that genre? Right? So I think what I think what it is is like when you when you feel a run-of-the-mill X or a run-of-the-mill Y, like, oh yep, this is a an Adam Sandler style comedy that blah blah blah. It and this is where timing matters, where like an Adam Sandler style comedy, when it was first coming out, was utterly awesome to so many different people. It was just like, whoa, like Happy Gilmore is this like bizarre new, like he's acting, he's acting like a child in like an over-the-top way that everyone kind of knows, but also everyone's acting everyone else is acting normal and it's kind of surreal, but like somehow it works. But now, if you look back on it and start to make that kind of movie, it doesn't hold up anymore because it's like you're a victim to your own success. Once you pave the way, you're on an instant downfall.
SPEAKER_02And now we don't have as much of like I mean, I wonder what it was like pitching one of the early Adam Sandler movies where they like, it's like a this movie, or was it just I don't know, it's just our own thing. We can do whatever I want. Because I never see that anymore. I get sent so many scripts and descriptions, like breakdowns for things, whether it's like I'm gonna be auditioning for a part in it, or someone wants me to read the script. And it's always like, it's like this and this. Like they want to say what it's like, the tone. And I understand saying that just because you want to give someone like I guess a lens for which to read the work, but also what if you didn't? And you just let it be its own thing. But but you know, we're so scared of um this is a whole other topic about the entertainment industry and like how we don't take as many risks anymore, but we're so scared of taking risks that we have to find something it's like. Like when I was making my movie, I had to be like, Well, it's like uh Francis Ha meets inside Lewin Davis. Like I had to give, even though those are both like pretty individual movies, yeah. That like, but even so even the quirky like individual stuff is its own because it's like we're naming everything.
SPEAKER_01The people who want to sell that want to know how to package that. Exactly. And and they in a way it's not it's not treating the public with respect. It's saying like it's saying like, look, people are dumb and they need to know uh how to package in their own brains, how can I generatize your movie in in two seconds?
SPEAKER_02And the thing is, this is so whatever, I don't mean to talk about my movie. I would bet you if you watched my movie and then immediately watched Francis Hawaii inside Lou and Davis, you'd be like, it's not like that. Very different at all. It's my movie's actually a lot more like this other movie I watched recently, like called uh I'd watched it before, but I rewatched it Happiness by Todd Swans, and I was like, oh, there's so many similar like shots and kind of timing things, even though the movie subject matter-wise is completely different.
SPEAKER_01But it's like Is that what's Philip Zimmer Hoffman? He's in that, yeah. Okay, yeah, I think I saw that a long time ago.
SPEAKER_02It's just oh, it's one of my favorite movies and Dylan Baker, who's in my movie too. Oh yeah, but anyway, it's it's just like this this really frustrating um categorization.
SPEAKER_01Do you would you okay? Here's a question. As somebody who's trying to, I'm trying to like do my own, I feel like I'm trying to do my own thing right now, like talking and playing and stuff. What category would I be? Like what is the thing that I'm doing?
SPEAKER_02Right. I mean, we were talking about this earlier because I don't know. Yeah, like public speaker, but are you a but are you really just like a recital pianist who with a mix of public speaking and right? And yeah, I mean you have to have some sort of name on it because people need to kind of know what they're going to. Like people aren't gonna just unless I like I think more mystery the better. I just want to be a good idea. But then mystery is the brand or the cat, you know what I mean? Like this guy who doesn't tell you. You don't know what it's gonna be. You can't escape it, right?
SPEAKER_01Right, right, right. Yeah. Anyway, I think it'll I I I think these things organically like unfold, right? And it's best to maybe, maybe artists that succumb too early to their branding suffer because it is like if you're told by a marketing person or a PR person, like, okay, you we we need to brand this thing. We need to figure out what you are so we can sell it. If you do that too early, without it just uh without allowing your own audience to tell you who you are, your own audience, the people who you're speaking to, like and who who are being affected by it, to say, oh, you're doing this for me. You're you're you're moving me in this way, or you're making me laugh, or you're you're showing me something. Um let them tell you what you're doing for them and then work from there rather than manufacturing that brand and then trying to sell it to an audience that you haven't yet built, you know?
SPEAKER_02I think the allure of overnight success that seems to be it's not still that possible, but with social media it almost could be because there's instant virality and people who sort of hit the jackpot right away. Because of that allure and that seeming possibility, we are quick to brand ourselves because we're like, okay, I know I there is a path to make money with this, so let's get the brand going. Let's let's like be as efficient as possible. There, we're not letting ourselves have that time to develop. And this is the case with stand-up comedians a lot now, because you can post a clip of your stand-up and it might get a ton of views, even if you're only a year into comedy, which is like you should not be no one should be paying to see you a year in. Like you're not worthy of the company. You haven't worked, you haven't worked enough.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and so you haven't developed enough material and have the confidence to have a voice.
SPEAKER_02Obviously, it's an over I don't mean some comedians might be good a year in and you should get paid, but you know what I'm saying, just in general, like like I I wasn't even thinking about making money as a comedian until maybe five years in at the earliest, but but that was a different time and um we're robbing ourselves of a lot of exploration. All that to say, I think Claire Delune does transcend whatever like genre or popularity we put on it because I think even people who are like against you know commercial stuff for what which this piece has become, yeah, not to not because WC necessarily won wanted that.
SPEAKER_01And so does, you know, Beethoven Moonlight sonata is a great example. Speaking of moon, I mean skipping on the moon theme for a second, but the first moment of that is like listening to listening to that in its day, like being a truly shocking opening for a sonata where like most sonatas start with a with a theme. Like, okay, let's like get to it. What are the music materials? And then what's the second theme? What's the development? Hey, let's go on a little journey together. And he's just like, I'm not gonna give you any of that. I'm barely giving you a melody, I'm not giving you anything. I'm just giving you a sad, slow chord that's falling and and transforming into something that's really deep and dark, right? And I'm not gonna let you off the hook, I'm gonna keep it there for the next five minutes. There's a melody that's that basically sounds like a a tolling bell signal signaling death. You know, that's all I'm gonna give you. That was utterly shocking then, and now it's like a cliche of sadness. I mean, or or at least it could be, uh, unless until you until this is something I'm really I think I believe in and I'm trying to do, until you go back to the music with fresh eyes by discovering some of the materials in it, so you can develop a fresh relationship with it. Rather than let's throw Beethoven for a second, all the context we have for him, even him, just out the window for a sec. Let's just look at the music and see what it's doing. And if we can like get inside the music, then we can get inside the original spirit of it. Right. And then you can shed the other context, like somebody crying in a movie and Beethoven Moonlight sonata being played and invite new context that that feels more personal to you.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01It it's hard to do that though, because it it's both an introducing of new context and also a shedding or a um kind of a chipping off of other cultural context that we've subconsciously imbued in there.
SPEAKER_02Right. And it's really impossible to like never be biased in any way. You're always coming with your own history, your own traumas, your own pre-conceived notions about everything. And I think it's a noble act to try to shed as many of those things as possible, especially when you're talking about other people, you know, because you don't want to discriminate, you don't want to judge people based on external things or whatever. But with art, it's also an important thing to do. Um to try to, you know, expand beyond just you know this.
SPEAKER_01Well, I'll I'll um I want to play you another famous piece because let's see if we can what's what do you think is more famous? Well, Beethoven Seven. What's more famous? Beethoven seven, what's more famous?
SPEAKER_00Scale one and ten right now.
SPEAKER_02These are the top seven most famous classical people. What if we were those type of YouTubers? Coming in at number nine, Beethoven. Make sure to like and subscribe.
SPEAKER_01Smash that like button. Um, Beethoven 7, the Allegretto movement. Okay. Oh, yeah. Um Brahms 118 number two.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Most people listen to, by the way, are like, what's Brahms? Okay, okay. Also, most people are saying what's Brahm, what's Beethoven's Beethoven's Allegretto, but you would know it if you heard it.
SPEAKER_01Why don't we do that really quick? Okay, so Beethoven uh Beethoven Symphony number seven, the second movement, the Allegretto movement, begins with this straightforward but unresolved, kind of like this fifth in the fifth in the bottom and the top, um, a minor chord, and then this is uh a music that Leonard Bernstein said a kid could have written, right? It's really simple harmonically, really simple rhythmically. There's nothing that complicated going on here. That's the beauty of Beethoven. A simple pattern that is laying the foundation for him to build on top of. So it's kind of like a vertical, you gotta think vertically here. He repeats it so that we really get it into our bones. But how he layers on top of this music is really special. So we get this inner voice, but the harmony isn't changing underneath, so it's basically we feel that fundamental pattern. But we have a human quality above that objective framing. And it's like a voice that's slowly growing inside of us. It doesn't get boring because even though we know what's coming, it's more like an emerging of something we know has always been there. So you kind of can just feel like this inside of you as each layer of voice is high. The tension is in that expectation. It's like there is something inevitable inside us that's gaining passion and courage and growing in a way that Beethoven is just naturally tapping into with this music. That's how I feel it.
SPEAKER_02You don't need shock to feel anxiety and tension and emotion, right? It's shock can be shocking and then uh emotional as a reaction. But like you're saying, this is we almost feel what's coming. Although I would argue against that a little bit. I mean, the r the repetition of it is almost unexpected. Like it's it's a little it's like wow, dare I say radical. Um, and then what's happening on top is changing. Yeah, so there the texture is changing. There is surprise and a bit of shock, I think, especially when it really climaxes. But I think your idea of when we do feel like we know what's coming next. I mean, it's like when you're watching a movie and you're like, ah, I know what's gonna happen. Kind of the dramatic irony. Yeah, I know where this is going. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Shoot. Yeah, there's an intentional play on that tension. Yeah. Um and and that again, that's like why why time and memory is so vital here. Because you're working with a human being who needs to assemble these repetitive patterns and understand how they're developing and where they came from. That climax is only as effective as it is because in some way we understand where we came from a minute ago.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01Like on a subconscious level.
SPEAKER_02Well, it's it's more emotionally meaningful where you when you know where someone came from or when you can sense where they came where it came from. Yeah. Because you're getting that context. Yeah. And it doesn't mean you need a whole backstory, but you can imply the backstory with the current material. That goes for all forms of art, I think. It goes for music, goes for film.
SPEAKER_01All right, covered it. All forms of art.
SPEAKER_02Not all form. I mean, I don't know about painting. I are you into visual art? I'm so I'm it's so uh not my thing.
SPEAKER_01Uh not so not so much. I I do think um I need like when I go to a museum or something, I really want to be educated by like a guide, you know.
SPEAKER_02It's probably how most people feel about classical music. And that's what you know, because you're giving that guidance.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, I could I definitely want a guide in whatever art form I'm viewing. Yeah. Um, why would you not want to be near an expert who can point things out to you that you didn't see? There is that value of like, well, let me just let it wash over me and let me develop my own personal you would have never thought of it this way if you knew all the context and what a beautiful new but when you have background and context, then you can build on that and disagree with things and come up with your own. Yeah, it's not like your creativity is killed by knowledge. I that is one thing that when I was in school, I was at uh when I when uh we were at Juilliard together, I went to the theory teacher uh and I said something The one theory teacher at Juilliard. No, yeah, no, there were many, but uh the I studied with a couple, but this guy, I was almost named him, but I said, Yeah, we don't need to name him. So um and I said something very naive. I came to his office hours and I was like, Yeah, but I'm just worried that you know, descri like isn't it a if you start describing things theoretically, like it kills the magic, you know? Like, am I gonna lose? I was concerned even then with losing a kind of um innocence, innocent and pure connection that I felt I had with the music where it was like I'm moved by this, I don't wanna know why. Because everyone, because anytime somebody says the word augmented six chord, I I I go, uh okay, like great. Is that what's so beautiful about this part? Wow. Like that means nothing to me.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it's a Neapolitan.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's a Neapolitan, or what the pedal point or the end of the development. Now, no, now I talk that way, actually, but it's a means to the end of expression.
SPEAKER_02We come we become what we are most afraid. That which we are most afraid of. I don't know, it sounds like a tragedy that probably exists. Definitely. Um both sitting exactly the same way. Whoa. Anyway, it's like form um patterns.
SPEAKER_01Uh and he was really pissed that I said that. Pissed. He was f he was clearly upset that I was like because for him it was probably me trying to dismiss his life's work, his entire life's work, right? Right. Like his he all he does is study form and structure and theory and like try to try to explain and analyze like Beethoven's music. And I was coming in there like, yeah, but it's not uh that's not what music's all about.
SPEAKER_02Well, okay, well, what was the actual purpose of your visit? Were you like just coming in to tell him your thoughts about his class?
SPEAKER_01It is kind of douchey. Hang on. No, no, no. It wasn't a comment session. I wasn't trying to just criticize him. I was expressing a fear, like legitimately. I was like, please sell me on theory because like I have this fear that because I have it's not coming from nothing, it's coming from my experience sitting there and somebody telling me these theory words and me losing the magic in this amazing piece and being stuck in the jargon of all the theoretical concepts in the analysis when I know that Beethoven didn't sit there thinking about chord structures, he just composed from his heart. You know what I mean? So, like theory and analysis is a post-art kind of uh situation where you after the fact you look back and you analyze and you say, Wow, look how these structures work. A sunflower doesn't think about its uh uh Fibonacci sequence spirals that it has, you know, like it's just amazing, it's just an expression of nature.
SPEAKER_02But okay, this makes me think of because there's something to what you're saying. Ooh. But I think uh what makes uh music theory in particular so fascinating is that usually we learn music before we learn the theory. It's almost like how we learn to speak before we can read. We learn to speak before we learn to read. So uh does reading ruin speaking? No. Not I would say generally no. No. So, and you know, language is arguably is the first technology humans created, and language has arguably, you know, robbed us of of a more rich, you know, uh physical life, but that's a different topic. Um, I had a math teacher in high school, and I will name him because this I think this is really cool. His name is Paul Lockhart, and I took a class of his called What is Math, and he had this whole argument that he wishes math were taught more like how music was taught, where you play with it first and then you learn all the terms. Because math from day one, you're learning what one plus one equals two. You're learning the functions, you're learning the theory rather than just playing with shapes and counting things and immediately. Yeah, yeah. So he had this whole essay, I think it was called The Mathematician's Apology, sort of arguing for math to be taught more the way music is generally taught, where you learn learn it in a more visceral way, and then you learn the theory. But I'm wondering how did your theory teacher express offense and then did he sell you on it, or did he just like get out of my office?
SPEAKER_01Uh his argument convinced me, but it wasn't compelling. He was basically like it's it only makes the music more um expressive to you and more powerful to know more. Basically, it's kind of like knowledge is power, like sure, you know, kind of like it will only amplify your appreciation for it. And I just kind of took his word for it, and I actually believe that it's true. That's how you feel now in general. It is absolutely how I feel now. Um I think you need I think you need someone who can marry the two, like who can also to not put so much weight when you're in a class learning, you gotta learn the stuff. That's the that's the reason you're there. So you're being tested on it, you have to memorize it, and and it feels like it has this enormous weight to know this. But the truth is, if someone and if someone said, Look, you don't absolutely in your musical career, it's rare that you're gonna have to be able to tell someone this is an augmented a French augmented six chord as opposed to a German one, right? But might this information only make you more curious about how these um forms in music interact with each other and how a composer might be using this language to create a beautiful essay.
SPEAKER_02Right. Did you ever have Sam Zeman at Juilliard? Because he he was a theory teacher who did a really good job of explaining the theory, but but always alongside like the emotion and the how ama listen to how amazing this piece is. Now listen to how amazing this core. You're gonna I tell you, you're gonna write home to your parents tonight and say, I heard the most beautiful piece of music. And like horrible. I think you would have loved his class because it was really marrying the two, just like the theory only made it better. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um I think it's I think it's so important to uh remember to get out of the conceptual like uh the cause we cause we do this all the time in our lives. I mean, uh we do this with our identities too, not to get too abstract, but like Isabel is a certain way to you. She sucks. According to you. But that's not uh reality. Like reality is is so much more abstract and impossible to nail down and not and not conceptual to identities. Like we define things in language that we've created through language, which is a limiting um set of communication. But it's necessary for us to understand each other on some level, on some societal level, on some level that uh promotes interaction and culture and all this stuff. But let's not forget that it's something we make up in order for things to seem easier to our brains. Right. Like a tree, we look outside and we say, that's a tree, but like a tree is this beautiful dialogue between the sun feeding into the earth. Yeah. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02And there's water tree, end and begin, you know, exactly.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. It's not something that has definite uh endings and beginnings, and neither do we. Right. And but like we we don't have to think that like that all the time, but it's important to like remember to take a step back and to think all of this is useful, but for what end? What is the end? For me, it's it's connection, you know, it's it's a feeling of oneness and connection with uh spirit or a community or others, it's a feeling of sharing, it's a thing that lights you up more than anything, whatever that thing is. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um so and we're so focused on the individual now, you know, especially. I mean, as as society progresses, it's more and more about the individual or your your little family, your insular family. We I'm the most happy when I'm around other people and not thinking about myself. Me too. Because that's how I think we're still hardwired to to be naturally.
SPEAKER_01But um just checking out like and subscribe.
SPEAKER_02It has been an hour. Okay. I think this like it's I think we're done.
SPEAKER_01I think we're getting we're starting to get out of here. Did I play Claire Delune earlier or was that a different podcast? Is it the same one? Same one. Holy mother of God. Okay, let's stop. Let's get some food. Okay, all right. Thanks, guys. Thank you so much for bearing with us. Thank you for listening, and we'll catch you then.
SPEAKER_02Get outside your own head, you know, connect with some people.
SPEAKER_01Or not.
SPEAKER_02I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Get off your phone. All right, talk to you soon.
SPEAKER_02Bye.
