Daniel and Isabel Save Classical Music
Classical musician-turned-stand up comedian Isabel Hagen and classical pianist Daniel Anastasio explore their favorite classical pieces while discussing the creative life. Listen along for live musical excerpts paired with banter between two best friends. New episodes every Tuesday.
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Daniel and Isabel Save Classical Music
Funereal Chopin
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Daniel and Isabel dive into Chopin's C-sharp minor Nocturne, the Funeral March from Chopin's Sonata No. 2 in B-flat minor, and more!
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So I want to start today with a little Chopin. Nocturne. Okay. Opus Posthumus, C sharp minor. Um and his Nocturnes, really a lot of Chopin, is influenced by operas around his time, specifically Bellini operas. These arias from them are so gorgeous and virtuosic and uh tender and vulnerable, and he captures that in his nocturnes. And the way operas kind of work is it kind of goes back and forth between these recitatives and arias. The arias are like what we really want to get to because they're the emotional meat of like the whole thing. Um they're an opportunity for the singer to not only show off but also bring us into like a really deep emotional world. The recites are just kind of moving the plot along. And what I think is so cool about this nocturne in particular is it starts with a little bit of a lead-in, almost like a reset to the aria. He starts with this kind of like it's just like something really tragic just happened. Usually what happens in these plots. And he's setting us up, you know, for the aria. So with that in mind, I thought it'd be fun to ask you to help set us up. Like imagine a beautiful aria is about to happen, something tragic in the plot just occurred. Give us like an example of something that might happen in an opera like this.
SPEAKER_01Well, can we hear the transition from the recet to the aria first? Like just a couple bars of one into the other.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like it it just starts exactly how if if you've been to an opera, those sort of just chords, those unresolved. Can you have an unresolved cadence?
SPEAKER_00This is like the orchestra. Yeah. You know, that's just like this just happened. Well, an unresolved cadence is really how he ends the first eight, uh, first four bars. So that's what we call a f a five chord, a dominant chord. It's like you need this to resolve.
SPEAKER_01It feels like a question, almost like, how am I gonna how am I gonna deal with this emotionally? And then the aria is the answer. Like, this is how I'm feeling, this is how I'm processing. Yes.
SPEAKER_00The aria is a is an opportunity to like stop time, stop the plot, everybody shut up. I need to process this. What just happened?
SPEAKER_01It's like in a movie, you get the setting, you get the situation, then you zoom into the character, they're internal. The aria is like their internal, like a close-up shot. The micro expression. Them them crying, them dealing with it. Yeah. Um, okay, you want we want a situation.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, set us up here, like more than just music. Because he doesn't Chopin doesn't give us a plot for this nocturne at all, but we can imagine one and it might help.
SPEAKER_01Nor do these composers generally do it's not like it's a normal thing for an instrumental piece to have a plot, a tarot. But that does happen if it's based on a poem or a story sometimes, or it's a programmatic music. But in general, we're not getting that. So just to say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is we're going a little uh but in an opera, it is because there's words, there's a story, right? Literally. Right. Um okay, uh, it's like, oh no, my uh my husband's sleeping with my sister, and now she and she's pregnant, and they're gonna have the baby, and he's leaving me for her, even though I thought that my husband was by one true love, and like you spend your whole life doubting all the relationships you're in, and then you find that one person who feels like actually normal, like you can be around and you trust that person, and then it turns out that person isn't who you thought they were, and now you'll never trust anyone ever again.
SPEAKER_00That's it. You're not gonna flesh that out a little bit more. Okay, the only thing that's missing is a death. Who die who dies in that?
SPEAKER_01Does it have to be a death?
SPEAKER_00Well, no, I guess it's tragic enough.
SPEAKER_01I mean, someone will die.
SPEAKER_00Okay, someone will die.
SPEAKER_01I mean, in I feel like Someone will die.
SPEAKER_00An opera by Isabel Hagen.
SPEAKER_01They will probably I feel like in a lot of these operas there's an initial tragedy that's more like what I just said. Yeah. Obviously, not that developed.
SPEAKER_00Um So this is this is responding to the initial tragedy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then maybe later that person gets sick and dies or dies of sadness. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Okay, we'll see if there's some death later on. We might squeeze in a little death later to end the turn. Um, okay, perfect. So with that in mind, actually, why don't you can we abbreviate that a little? I'm gonna play the opening and you're just gonna remind us what we should be focusing on in the plot. Just a couple key points. Okay, here we go.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, my husband's leaving me for my sister.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's the opening. So that's setting up.
SPEAKER_01That person is really sad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, it's uh it's really it really does bring you to this very vulnerable place. I mean, Chopin does it right away just with the accompaniment, that it's so simple. The left hand, the left hand accompaniment is almost like this guitar or something. It's like bringing you to an instrumentation that's already very uh sparse or very thin, so that you know, rather than have like this multi-layered texture, or like where normally, you know, he has these kind of like bass and then cord, cord. He doesn't have that here, it's just an arpeggiation, really simple, and then up top in a two-octave higher register is the voice. So there's that distance, too, that's really beautiful and makes us feel the space. It's like the void in the middle is really powerful, all the space in between the voices, so that especially when it reaches way up high. And what you learn when you're practicing and playing Chopin is this is hard to do, but like your right hand should be singing with this dynamic freedom that the left hand should almost be unaffected by. It's really easy and tempting to start the left hand to start getting active and louder, too.
SPEAKER_01Right. The the right hand is really a separate voice, a separate character from the left. Yeah. I had a thought while you were highlighting the accompaniment, which is that a lot of more modern minimalist music, especially that used in film, is sometimes just like the accompaniment. Like it'll just be a arpeggiated thing that kind of develops.
SPEAKER_00Something like that. We can even take show bands.
SPEAKER_01That could be a soundtrack, and it made me think it's because the right hand is the characters speaking. Oh. Or the or the images that we're seeing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So it needs to be like a soundtrack requires that more minimal texture in order to leave space for what's happening when you're with your eyes. Is that part of it?
SPEAKER_01Doesn't not that it requires it, but I think it can work really well. Yeah. You also, I mean, so Chopin is used in its full form as soundtrack in movies music a lot. Yeah. But I think another approach is just distilling this almost accompaniment that's just for not music, for the music of the of the visual, of the characters' emotions, the dialogue.
SPEAKER_00I love that.
SPEAKER_01But they didn't have movies back then.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_00What they had was opera.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Opera was the the big thing, and it was the most expensive high production value, right? It had the most parts. And so having a piano piece that could sort of distill that was economical in a way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. It's it's crazy how times have changed. Like I I actually think not going to get too far off, but I really think video games are kind of like one of the most potentially one of the most ultimate forms of art now because you have like opera, you have it's a kind of whole package. You have visuals, you have storytelling, you have a potential script, um, you have plot, uh, a soundtrack, um but you also have the the autonomy of a like a person playing the main character. So it's uh it's so immersive, you know, unlike something like an opera where you're just like visually or a movie where you're kind of uh just uh taking in these characters, you get to be them. It's just that I don't think that medium is often used to its fullest effect because it's so easy to uh cheapen it and it's easy to go the route of like uh grabbing our attention in more superficial ways. But I think when I've played a great video game, for example, it has all of those elements.
SPEAKER_01See, I never play video games, so I never think of video games as a medium, but you're so right. And I think it gets cheapened because the experience of playing it is so distracting that you're not as much aware, like, oh, the sound in this is bad, or that or the graphics aren't great, or or this story is dumb.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But I'm still getting to play it and have like a role, so I'm still enjoying it.
SPEAKER_00And likewise, like with something like an opera, you know, operas, there are operas uh can't come off the top of my head, but that are more just like, all right, whatever plot, you know, basic cookie cutter plot. Let's get to the music, let's get to those beautiful arias that are I'm coming to this opera for the aria or for the couple arias that I know are gonna move me. I and there are other operas that are just more interesting plot-wise, you know.
SPEAKER_01Um but the more interesting the plot, the more impactful the aria is gonna be because I think so. There's more there are more stakes, there's more you have to contextualize it. Yeah. Or else the you can't. I mean it's funny because when you listen to music, you are just music alone, you are getting a sort of distilled emotion that you can decide to put your own meaning to. But if you're going to an opera or a movie or any kind of production, you you need the context in order to make it rewarding. Otherwise, it feels like, what am I? Well, they're overreacting.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's a little bit what Chopin's doing here to bring back to Chopin because he's acknowledging that you can't just start this nocturne like this. I mean, you can, and actually it would be quite beautiful, but I have a feeling he composed from here first. He thought of the melody first, and then he thought, you know, like the weight of this, the beauty of this, the darkness of C sharp minor, like, this has a gravity to it that deserves um a kind of setup, a little introduction that allows us to acknowledge to like hone our attention that something maybe just happened. It's really gonna bring us to the emotional state of the singer. So that then when it finally does come in, we feel the gravity of it more.
SPEAKER_01It's almost disorienting at first on purpose, right? You have these kind of unresolved cadences, these questioning chords. Right.
SPEAKER_00This chord, uh, what is it? Those uh that's an augmented sixth chord. Very intense dissonance that resolves, you know, to a five, to more, I mean it's resolving to something that's unresolved.
SPEAKER_01German or a French augment six? This one's a German. I guess there's and then there's the Italian, which is just the German, which is but missing a note, right?
SPEAKER_00Or missing the, I don't know, I think of the fifth, but it's yeah. Um I just wanted to show off my minimal theory knowledge. You totally studied theory in conservatory, bravo. Um Bravo. Never have bravo bravi bravi. I love being the first person at a concert before the clapping starts. I mean, after the concert's done, everybody does really well, and then right in that silence before the clapping, bravi. You've never done that. You've never been a solo bravo or have you. I've done it as a joke when friends are playing.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00They totally know it's me.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it's so great. You gotta, you gotta wonder, like I mean, it's it's a way to show. It's a it's it's definitely like a way to draw attention to yourself. I don't think anyone is ever so moved that they as soon as the piece ends, just go brava. Like that's not a word. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Dude, were you couldn't you have been moved to do that like at a different minute?
SPEAKER_01Right. I feel like if you're really moved and you can't control, it'll just be like, oh, like I've heard that. Like I've heard people just like orgasm. The orgasm, yeah. Even that though, I feel like is a good idea.
SPEAKER_00And with older with older audiences, there's a there's a oh my.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00Oh my word. Or but during intermission.
SPEAKER_01Or just a oh.
SPEAKER_00How about the uh we don't have to go down this route, but how about the pianist who hangs on too long?
SPEAKER_01What do you mean?
SPEAKER_00Like to the last note. Maybe I'm playing the last note of this nocturne. And then you start looking up into the heavens. Well, it's oh god. Oh my gosh. Okay, it was like dude, like don't do that.
SPEAKER_01Well, also people are always saying, Oh, like we were all just so spellbound. We didn't know we were but really people are just like, can I clap?
SPEAKER_00People are ready to clap after like two or three seconds of that hold that I like you gotta meet, you gotta meet well, here's the thing you gotta meet people where they are in the crowd. I think that's really important. Like, dude, you know what? If you want to hang if they are really actually paying attention to you that hard, and you feel like you could hold them in that energy for a long time. I've had beautiful experiences where that's happened, but they're rare. It's like normally I feel taken advantage of as an audience member.
SPEAKER_01Because it's manufactured. I feel uh gross, it's like an assault. I'm like, don't hold me in this space. I'm not ready to be here.
SPEAKER_00There you go. Because they're not feeling the true energy of the crowd, which is like sometimes people just they're just ready to clap, and you gotta give that to them. We want to clap. Wow, the piece is so profound. Like, yeah, uh and sometimes it really truly is. But you don't want you don't want to you don't want to hold people hostage in that way.
SPEAKER_01You don't want to hold people hostage to your vision and your That's how I feel for sure. Like it's it's such a fine line because obviously you want the performer to be inspired and to have a vision and to be trying to convey it in some way or or or be experiencing something in the moment, some emotion, some transcendence, but you can't uh just expect everyone to be feeling the same thing. And it's like the real artists know how to bring it to the audience rather than well, you should just it's setting you able to be with me in this.
SPEAKER_00No, it's it's setting it's setting yourself up, it's setting the audience up to feel judged and to feel uh ashamed. I mean, I'm okay. I turned into just like a funny bit and now it's like getting kind of serious. But for real, I've had someone I I mean, I've been in a concert where it was like two minutes. I'm I'm dead serious.
SPEAKER_01And I was there to argue that it was bad.
SPEAKER_00They'd be like, we were just all spellbound, but it's like really we were just like and then eventually someone just like and then like you got so offended. Oh he oh super offended. I was there with my twin sister, Jessica, who like I mean, we were when we were young at a concert, are you kidding me? Like we're trying to make each other laugh all the time because there's this awkward tension of like the way you're supposed to be at a concert, especially when we were young. Hopefully we're loosening up somewhat on that. But um, all these rules, and it just it just was funny. It just lends itself to trying to make each other laugh um in awkward moments, and we were dying, like trying not to laugh, trying not to laugh, holding this note for I don't know how many years. And it just yeah, it left a bad taste in my mouth ultimately because it's like it's the feeling of how dare you uh ruin this moment. But dude, it's my moment too. We're all sharing this moment. I mean, you're the one creating the music, and that's amazing. But the sound, I'm I think our audiences are taking part in the listening experience in the way that creates a collective concert between the person performing and the people listening. It's like I'm a listener too while I'm performing. We're all listeners, and that's a that's a beautiful role, that's a beautiful dialogue that's happening between the music and our ears. Yes. And it helps uh just create the experience together. It's not like a me versus you thing.
SPEAKER_01Right. Um to counter that slightly shall you. Especially, well, as a comedian, it's so different because there's an actual response you're trying to get. So it's a little more obvious when the audience isn't where you want them to be. Yeah, that's what I love.
SPEAKER_00That's what I love about comedy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's the best. Um, there's nothing better. But music pale no. Well, no, but here okay, here's my other side thought. Because I perform comedy and music together a lot of the time, I will say audiences they like music more than they like comedy, whether they like it or not. But interesting. But if you don't put music in there, people love anyway. But playing music where the audience is supposed to be silent, at least that kind of music. So we're not talking about a rock concert where people can cheer and show their reaction in the moment, not just when the song or piece is over. You don't want to assume that they're not enjoying it. Sometimes crowds uh seem like like you just don't feel their energy, and you might sort of give up on something a little too soon because you're like, Well, they're clearly not enjoying it, but you actually don't know. And a lot of times and sure, they could be like it could be BS, people coming up to you after, but a lot of times people come up to you after and you can tell, like, oh no, they were actually really moved by that, even though I didn't really feel their energy in the moment, it was kind of not a great performance from me from where I stood, yeah, my perception of it. So, yes, it's a collective experience, but you also can't rely on the audience, and you do have to be like a Real leader of the moment. Like you kind of just have to find an in-between where you're not exploiting the audience and thinking that they're too much with you, but you also don't want to abandon them.
SPEAKER_00Well, you gotta have taste. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you gotta you gotta feel out and figure out and have some taste about what's too long and what's not too long. I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you have to just not be egotistical and so so self-centered. That's yeah, right. That's what it comes down to.
SPEAKER_00You gotta be receptive in the moment to what the energy is. I think that's and I just know from my own experience of that story, like I was getting really uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_01Well, two minutes to hold the note is insane.
SPEAKER_00It's crazy. Um I want to play for you a little bit more of this nocturne real quick, just to show you how it changes. So after this, the end of the first page. So we have this tragedy, and then it shifts to a major key. So then it goes a little bit back to minor, but this shift. Do you hear anything different in the plot there? Or do you feel like it's not? No, I feel like this is exactly the same.
SPEAKER_01No. Well, to me, that says there's something that's been lost. These are there's a nostalgia because if we don't see what we lost with these sort of you know, happier times, not to use such basic language for it, but it's in a major key. It's it's a happier reflecting on a happier time, it makes it that much more sad because we're seeing what we lost, or we're hearing and feeling what was what's been lost, which if it's the story that I said, you know, it's this relationship, this trust, or something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. There's always I think in a lot of times in romantic era music, the the bittersweetness is in major keys. The minor keys is kind of the the forceful impact, the trauma, and then this is kind of like the processing or the nostalgia that happens that allows us to accept what's happened. It's like a different stage of the grieving. And um, this actually happens, this happens all the time, and a really famous example is Chopin again, uh, from his second sonata. Yeah, believe it or not, Chopin was pretty good at this stuff. Very famous piece. This third movement from his second sonata, the funeral march. So the middle section is actually in a major key. Uh so after we have we go to D flat major. It's just these again, these arpeggiated figures in D flat major, not going into any crazy harmonies. Really one harmony per bar, you know, and this beautiful nocturne basically above. What's a nocturne? This could be a nocturne.
SPEAKER_01That's a different uh definition of a nocturne.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. A night piece. Like it I think it's the implication. I hate it.
SPEAKER_01Well, Noct means, but it's not spelled like N-N-N.
SPEAKER_00N-O-C-E-T-U-R-N. Like nocturnal, like nightly. Oh you thought it was Nocturne?
SPEAKER_01You thought it was German. I did not think it was spelled that way, but when you said, I don't know, like night piece, I was thinking Well, it's not spelled Nocturne. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_00But um no, I and actually, I mean Chopin didn't invent the Nocturne. This guy John Field did, but Chopin really made it famous. But what it does have a nocturne. It has this quality. I mean, I didn't look up like the Encyclopedia Britannica of Nocturne. But I will after this. Um But my understanding is that it it's a in a it's a sort of lullaby-ish, you know, piece because uh it's nocturnal. It's it's at at night we kind of relax.
SPEAKER_01You know, so do all nocturnes have like a relaxed quality to them?
SPEAKER_00Um I would say all of them start that way. Some of them, I mean, relaxed is subjective. I mean the way that C minor one starts is not that relaxed.
SPEAKER_01That's like my sleep. It starts relaxed and then I have horrible dreams. There's some nightmares.
SPEAKER_00The C minor one. I can play a little bit of that one for you, but that one that one ends up being a a pretty feverish nightmare. Um but then it ends up returning, you know, to this whoa, where did we just go? Um so there are stories to them, and as Chopin always does, he takes a form or a genre like the nocturne, and he totally brings it to the next level. So it's almost like the waltz too, or the berserka. It's like well, you know, I can't dance to this. Yeah, because Chopin is uh turning it into something that is more of like an artistic expression that goes way beyond.
SPEAKER_01The berserk are traditionally dances.
SPEAKER_00Traditionally just like the waltz is a my understanding is that it's a traditional dance that you know wasn't that big of a deal. It's pretty uh ubiquitous, you know, across Europe. And like Chopin with some of his waltzes, I mean he's writing really complex structures and stories in them and melodies and harmonies that you would not normally have in a waltz. Some of them could be a little bit could be danced to, but many of them shouldn't be really because they're art pieces in themselves and aren't meant to be danced. It's the same with Bach in his sorry, but his dance suites, for example.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're not supposed to dance to like the cerebellum of the evening or something. Yeah, exactly. Uh this is a side note. It's just a personal thing, but I always feel like it's such a cop out when teachers are like, Well, it's a dance. Yeah when they're teaching you a book. Don't you feel that feel the dance more? And it's like, well sure. I guess that could help a student who's really stuck and like not feeling it at all. But also it's such a it leads to nowhere because ultimately it's not something that's gonna be danced to, and I feel like it ignores all the I just feel like it's not I don't know what I'm saying. Well, or like it's just such a obvious thing.
SPEAKER_00Like, first of all, I I I have trouble dancing not to courtly growing up. Right.
SPEAKER_01The fact that we dance doesn't necessarily make it better for the right.
SPEAKER_00Okay, you really want me to get up and dance? It's not gonna be profound art, bro. Right. But um it I think part of it is like, okay, if something's in three, like if I put hang on, let me let me bring up like a just like a box suite really quick. Uh maybe that's a bad idea.
SPEAKER_01You're like, I can't. I'm like, oh my god. You just scrolling through your sheet music, horrified.
SPEAKER_00Well, if you if you look at I don't know, even even something like you mentioned the Cerebon, right? If you understand that the emphasis of a cerebral is B2, that might help you, but not if you don't understand it as in the context of a dance. So in other words, because like leaning or like jumping as a emphasis or landing as an emphasis is different than like going, you know, okay. It's like okay, I'm accenting B2. That doesn't help me. But if it's if you're thinking of a lift, like then you you you have some like buoyancy in what's happening.
SPEAKER_01In that case, knowing the dance is helpful.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I stand corrected. You stand corrected. Okay, good. That's what I'm here for.
SPEAKER_01I'm just it's to correct you. I just find teaching annoying.
SPEAKER_00Oh, dude. We could I mean we could have an entire podcast just on our crazy training and all the pro I mean, all the good things and all the problematic things. I mean, because you and I are so good. We're very good, we're very secure, we're very healthy, we um have no doubts about our abilities and what I'm talking about right now. What topic are we on? What are we talking about?
SPEAKER_01You were talking about the nocturne, and I asked you what a nocturne was, and then we and we got Oh yeah. You were doing the get-depth nocturne.
SPEAKER_00Let me get to this was only supposed to take like 10 minutes, and now we're in minute 30, which is awesome because I want to get to the end. Um where let's let's let's let's look at how this nocturne resolves, if it does.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so this the first one or the one that's the death march?
SPEAKER_00The C sharp minor. No, forget the death thing. That's not a nocturne. That's the slow movement of those sonata.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that's not a nocturne, sorry. But I will say, anyone listening has heard dun dun dun dun dun dun dun and they didn't realize Has anyone heard that beat section? No way. I had never heard it.
SPEAKER_00Gotta listen to that guy. And I'm a classical musician. Showman Sonata number two. The third movement. Listen to the whole thing. The whole thing is a masterpiece. It's a really common competition piece, actually, because it shows it shows so much, like technically. I mean, the last movement is this perpetual motion, crazy, uh, crazy, crazy virtuosic thing. Oh wow. But the third movement is this the funeral march is another example where it's like, dude, that's not a funeral march. Like, I'm not gonna have that played at my funeral.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's because it's been used by like Looney Tunes. It's it's too yeah. Well, could you imagine having that at an actual funeral now? Like, is this a joke? Like, like, yeah, we get it, it's sad.
SPEAKER_00Renowned musician wants the most wants the dun dun dun music at his funeral. It's like, yeah, can we go with that dun dun dun thing? But then the the middle section is as profound, like I'm in the Elysian fields, beautiful, bittersweet, like looking down on my past life. Oh, yeah. It's like it's getting a little long for an actual like I'm marching to I'm bringing the body to the is that what a funeral march even is for? I think so. Like we're gonna be able to do that. Like the pall bearers. The pall bearers?
SPEAKER_01I think so.
SPEAKER_00I haven't been to a lot of funerals.
SPEAKER_01Well, then there's the New Orleans uh like happy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but that's a totally different. I wonder if Chopin would have dug that. Okay. Uh so let's finish this middle section first of the nocturne. So we're in this major key. And speaking of dance, you actually get a little dance. It's like one last little spurt of kind of remembering joy or something. I don't know, something playful here.
SPEAKER_01Or perhaps a glimpse that there's gonna be a brighter future.
SPEAKER_00And then no transition here, just ripped back into reality.
SPEAKER_01So speaking of major I do feel like that major ending kind of comes out of nowhere. Yeah. I mean, it's it's kind of functions as a in the way a pickardy third does in Baroque. All of a sudden, we may give us a de everyone's heard of Pickardy third, even if they don't know what it's called.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, it's just you're you're in a minor key. And then all of a sudden after the piece is going, going, going, the very last chord is actually a major chord. You raise the third. Pickardy third. Um, and man, I'm trying to remember why that happens in Baroque music. I mean, I think it has to do with God. I think it has to do with like uh you know, like a divinity shining through or something. I mean it's a good idea.
SPEAKER_01There was a lot of superstition back then, almost. I don't have any confirmation of this, but it feels like some sort of tied in with superstition, sort of with like the devil's chord, the tritone. Yeah. Like not using it for a while because it meant oh, to not end in minor, or not even to use a tritone because it was the devil's interval. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Becomes like one of the most popular intervals in the 20th century. Um one of my favorite parts of this whole nocturne is the coda, which means like it's kind of the tail end of a piece. It's like the piece basically ends in measure 56. The downbeat of measure 57. Okay, that that's pretty much the end of the piece, but now we have this. You can consider this just added material. And these runs are actually very vocal. Like in those Bellini operas, in those Italian operas in the Romantic period, one of the things that would stun people is the control that the singer has gliding up and down um their their their instrument, right? And with and even though there's a there's a crescendo and a decrescendo here, I kind of feel like when I'm playing it, I'm gonna crescendo anyway because it's just going higher and I'm being active. But if I resist the crescendo, it sounds better because I'm pulling people inward into a I'm forcing people to listen more closely. If you just let the crescendo go, it feels natural and it sounds very organic, but what if I resist that and actually try to come back toward the top?
SPEAKER_01There's something How do you what do you do technically to resist it?
SPEAKER_00Um I play more shallowly in the key, so instead of sinking all the way down into the key, I let just the pads of my finger do the work and just come down in the key only halfway, pretty much. It takes some risk. Like just now when I played it. Not on the note sounded. Although that's noticing that.
SPEAKER_01Well, that's reminiscent of when you're crying and like it doesn't all I love that gets caught.
SPEAKER_00No, I I dude, I don't know, that gets me. Like someone not quite being able to hit a note is so moving to me. Much more moving than nailing it and I don't care about virtuosity. I really don't.
SPEAKER_01Well, you have to care about it a little. You do need some of it. Like you no matter what, you're playing with virtuosity, you're taking a lot of it for granted.
SPEAKER_00I guess, and I have this conversation a lot with Brennan, like a violinist friend. Yeah, a very good friend who's a violinist. He always says that the tech technique is everything because that's giving you all the control that you uh need in order to do whatever you want. If you don't have the technique, you can't express yourself fully. You can't express yourself freely. And I agree with that. But I guess I've seen so m just time and time again, people whose focus is technique. People who whose entire and especially because of our training, most of what is said in lessons is uh a lot of what is said is technical because we just there's so much to learn. We don't we're not born with the ability to play the piano, it's not an organic thing. Playing the viola is super awkward. Um, and we need to f find a way to had develop a healthy relationship with this crazy beast. Um and so we can get obsessed, especially in the days in the day of recording and perfectionism. It can be so easy to just say, shoot, it's not good enough, it's not clean enough, I'm not loud enough here, I'm not soft enough there, and lose focus of the real the real stuff, which is what? I mean, it is an intention, it's a feeling, it's a letting go, it's a vulnerability that you don't want to have to think about the technique. I can I can hear absolutely without a doubt, I promise you I can hear when someone is thinking about their technique as they're playing. And I'm sure you would agree.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that I don't want to hear that.
SPEAKER_01But arguably that that person is thinking about it because their technique isn't as good. So that would go in line with what Brendan is saying, right?
SPEAKER_00It could be, but I know people who have perfect technique who are just stuck still like, yep, nailed that. Yep, I'm still I'm nailing that. Yeah. Like it because it requires a certain focus. It does require focus, but you have to let go in the right moments. I and I think this is one of those moments where it's like you you you you have to it's this beautiful dance, I guess, between I am a physical person who needs to move my fingers very fast in order to make this happen, and I don't want to miss notes. But I have to convey the essential spirit and emotion that this music deserves. In order to do that, my attention has to be released from all that technique. It's like a dance that you're constantly doing.
SPEAKER_01You don't ever get to the point, like I I will get something so in my hands that one, I can be completely emotional and it doesn't affect the technique, or I black out, I don't even remember the performance, and that's not great because it means I was kind of on autopilot. But it can be wild. Like I I get so I get so much muscle memory that it can either be a really good thing or a not so great thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think that's a complicated one. I mean, for one, I don't I don't tend to memorize stuff anymore. I'm using music all the time. So that adds a layer of concentration that I need to be having. So I I do think one of the benefits of memorizing is that you can more fully embody that expression and rely on your autopilot muscle memory in order to get things done. Um that's a sacrifice that I'm willing to have for uh not having to memorize because there's just so many notes I have to memorize and it it it takes it takes a really, really long time to memorize something well as a pianist.
SPEAKER_01There's so many so fewer notes. Yeah, it's just straight up. And also you could argue like the energy it takes uh worrying about a memory slip. Where versus just having the music in front of you, you know if you forget something, the music's right there. Yeah. Sometimes when I and we can wrap it up on this, but as a comedian, if I'm doing a longer set, especially if I'm trying a new order of jokes or I have some new jokes in there, I'll bring a set list in my pocket and I probably don't reference it. But just knowing it's in my pocket, I'm good to go. Because I there's no fear, because if I forget something, I'd be like I can make it funny off. Sorry, one sec, you know. Yeah. I consult my notes for a second, the audience is still having a great time, and I don't have to forget what I'm doing.
SPEAKER_00I mean, if I could do that with me if I could But you are, you're you're reading off the music. No, well that's true. I just mean like it's like, well, let me try it memorized, and hey, if I mess up, I can just go backstage. Sorry guys, hang out a sec.
SPEAKER_01I yeah, but your version of that could just be having the iPad there and not even looking at it unless you need to glance up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. You know. That's probably that's probably true. And and I do think my best performances are when I'm looking at the notes as a kind of broad gesture um or like a a reference point for my mind, and not like every single I'm not questioning is this a G sharp or a G double sharp? Hold on, did that accidental carry through? Or like, where am I in this piece? That's a real sign of like I probably should have practiced it more, or I probably should have integrated it more into my body. So you can have the full range. It's just when you have to memorize something, when it's a requirement, when you tell yourself, all right, I'm playing it with without music no matter what, then you will absolutely get to that level because you have to. When you have the music up there, it could be a range of, you know what, I just looked at this yesterday and I'm just kind of reviewing it and I got the music up there, so whatever. Or it could be as deep as I'm using it as a kind of reference point, like a joke's in my pocket kind of thing. So any any degree of that is possible when you're using music. So let me um with music play the very end of the Chopin Nocturne again, just because it's like my favorite part. This little coda where we get these wisps of sound, this reflective these reflective gestures that happen at the very end, and then the the Picardy third going to major at the very, very end. Um and I will try to marry these two things, technique and emotion, and not worry so much if I miss a note, but um go for the emotional content and try to let go just enough, but not so much, that I'm losing control of my hand. Okay. So maybe from the peak of this previous phrase. Thank you. Thank you, Isabel.
SPEAKER_01See you next time.
SPEAKER_00Hope I didn't hold you too long at the end in the last note.
SPEAKER_01I feel assaulted. No, that was perfect.
SPEAKER_00All right, see you guys in the next episode. Thanks.
